Alpha Course

[richard dawkins]

Yeah, well I personally believe that it's people who do harm. If it wasn't religion they'd find some other excuse. There was no religion in Sovet Russia, but they still managed to murder millions. Ditto Cambodia. Hitler wasn't religious - he used Judaism as a convenient means of tagging ethnicity. I could go on.

Hitler was religious and made some sinister tactical alliances with the Catholic Church. Stalin was a lunatic but none of what he did was in the name of atheism.

As for religion, the problem is they do harm in the name of religion. Suicide bombers are doing it because of their religion. Crusades was because of Religion. Not giving out condoms in Africa is because of Religion.
The way gays are mistreated has a lot to do with Christianity. The problems up the North also are where religion and politics are intertwined.

It's a long list dude.

It also messes up a lot of people in the head. Making them think they are great because they are irrational. But it also does a lot of good. You think the amount of books I have sold and the money I have made from religion.

[Vlad the Impaler]

I guess my annoyance is that anyone professing a religion - particularly Catholic - seems to be a duck shoot among 'right-on' worthy people and the chattering classes in Ireland at present.

I also get annoyed at the smug assertion by some that there is no God, because it's not provable - and that religious people probably just aren't intellectual enough to get that. As if science had all the answers.

[richard dawkins]

I guess my annoyance is that anyone professing a religion - particularly Catholic - seems to be a duck shoot among 'right-on' worthy people and the chattering classes in Ireland at present.

In fairness the Catholic Church covering up child abusers, moving them to other parishes, telling gays they go to hell, the CEO in Ireland openly admits he covered up some child abusers and made young abused kids sign statements they wouldn't tell anyone.

They deserve no sympathy whatsoever.

I also get annoyed at the smug assertion by some that there is no God, because it's not provable - and that religious people probably just aren't intellectual enough to get that. As if science had all the answers.

And what if religious people are less intellectual. Surely it is better to know that sometimes and just not bother arguing with them?

No-one claims science has all the answers. If they do they don't understand it.

[Vlad the Impaler]

I'm differentiating between the institutional Catholic Church and ordinary Catholics - even ordinary priests - in my remarks.

[richard dawkins]

I'm differentiating between the institutional Catholic Church and ordinary Catholics - even ordinary priests - in my remarks.

That's like differentiating between FF and FF voters in my opinion.

But yeah, I see what you mean: "ordinary" Catholics are probably closer to spiritual humanists. They don't believe in a lot of the Bible if you ask them. They are agnostic about many things and yes pretty decent folk.

[gemma]

Yes that makes a lot of sense. What's your take on homosexuality?

Its foolishness to the logical thinker - because he's outside of that.
With faith I find stuff written 2000+ years ago 'new' every morning.

Relationship not Religion

Yes that makes a lot of sense.

What's your take on homosexuality? Do you think it is wrong / sinful / etc because the bible says so or do you have another take on it?

Not at anyone in particular but 'Religion' is not the cause of all war in the world look at this....
http://carm.org/religion-cause-war#footnote3_fq6jkiz

RE the whole Gay thing - i'm a Christian and I have gay friends. My church leader says he would have no issue if a gay person was to attend out service/prayer groups etc... why not?
because the bible says its wrong? yes thats true - the bible says its a sin.
What else is sin and who else sins?? (all of us)
Lusting over a man/woman... lying... stealing... gossip... the list is pretty long and we all do them - no one is perfect.

But the bible also says the greater/over-rulling command is - love.
There is an old saying in Christian circles - "love the sinner - hate the sin..." I accept my gay friends because I know Jesus hung out literally drank and socialised amongst tax collectors, prostitutes and 'sinners' I want to 'love' on them in the sense that God loves them. I believe God loves us enough that he wants us to self-improve and become more 'Christ like' in our character etc...
develop more of his traits - love, joy, peace, patience, kindness etc... wouldn't the world be better?

love wins...

[richard dawkins]

Not at anyone in particular but 'Religion' is not the cause of all war in the world look at this....
http://carm.org/religion-cause-war#footnote3_fq6jkiz

I don't think anyone said it is cause of "all" wars. They said that people do terrible things in the name of religion. People don't do terrible things in name of atheism. You have terrible people who are atheist but they don't do anything in the name of atheism. Do you read the posts people wrote?

RE the whole Gay thing - i'm a Christian and I have gay friends. My church leader says he would have no issue if a gay person was to attend out service/prayer groups etc... why not?
because the bible says its wrong? yes thats true - the bible says its a sin.
What else is sin and who else sins?? (all of us)
Lusting over a man/woman... lying... stealing... gossip... the list is pretty long and we all do them - no one is perfect.

So you compare being gay with lying and stealing?

But the bible also says the greater/over-rulling command is - love.
There is an old saying in Christian circles - "love the sinner - hate the sin..."

I accept my gay friends because I know Jesus hung out literally drank and socialised amongst tax collectors, prostitutes and 'sinners' I want to 'love' on them in the sense that God loves them.

I accept gay friends because I don't see any issue with their gayness more than I would the colour of socks they were. It is their business what colour socks they were and their business what they find sexually attractive. Thinking there is something wrong with it just because an ancient text says it is, is a terrible outlook to have. I prefer the idea of thinking it is wrong because it causes harm to someone else.

I believe God loves us enough that he wants us to self-improve and become more 'Christ like' in our character etc...
develop more of his traits - love, joy, peace, patience, kindness etc... wouldn't the world be better?

love wins...

What you are saying is not love. It is bigotry. And no the world would be a way worse place with your type of thinking. I think gays have a hard enough time. It is used to be common thinking in Ireland that it was like stealing and hence was a criminal offense up until recently.

You have a very deluded concept of love. Taken from an ancient load of sinister, nonsense.

[gemma]

Not at anyone in particular but 'Religion' is not the cause of all war in the world look at this....
http://carm.org/religion-cause-war#footnote3_fq6jkiz

I don't think anyone said it is cause of "all" wars. They said that people do terrible things in the name of religion. People don't do terrible things in name of atheism. You have terrible people who are atheist but they don't do anything in the name of atheism. Do you read the posts people wrote?

RE the whole Gay thing - i'm a Christian and I have gay friends. My church leader says he would have no issue if a gay person was to attend out service/prayer groups etc... why not?
because the bible says its wrong? yes thats true - the bible says its a sin.
What else is sin and who else sins?? (all of us)
Lusting over a man/woman... lying... stealing... gossip... the list is pretty long and we all do them - no one is perfect.

So you compare being gay with lying and stealing?

But the bible also says the greater/over-rulling command is - love.
There is an old saying in Christian circles - "love the sinner - hate the sin..."

I accept my gay friends because I know Jesus hung out literally drank and socialised amongst tax collectors, prostitutes and 'sinners' I want to 'love' on them in the sense that God loves them.

I accept gay friends because I don't see any issue with their gayness more than I would the colour of socks they were. It is their business what colour socks they were and their business what they find sexually attractive. Thinking there is something wrong with it just because an ancient text says it is, is a terrible outlook to have. I prefer the idea of thinking it is wrong because it causes harm to someone else.

I believe God loves us enough that he wants us to self-improve and become more 'Christ like' in our character etc...
develop more of his traits - love, joy, peace, patience, kindness etc... wouldn't the world be better?

love wins...

What you are saying is not love. It is bigotry. And no the world would be a way worse place with your type of thinking. I think gays have a hard enough time. It is used to be common thinking in Ireland that it was like stealing and hence was a criminal offense up until recently.

You have a very deluded concept of love. Taken from an ancient load of sinister, nonsense.

You actually sound a bit dictatorish in your response! Ya, I read the posts... but I had a feeling the discussion was headed towards religion = all war so i just jumped ahead.
Atheists Godless or anti-God men have a lot to answer for. Atheism stands for nothing how can you do anything in the name of atheism? Yes people kill for a BELIEF in something. Atheists have the most faith as they believe in nothingness, yet seem to cause the most harm with humanistic ideas (we know better than God ideas).

Do I compare being gay with lying and stealing? Sin is sin. Meaning your falling short of what God intends for you - which is all good. You're better than that. Oh you mean big sins & little sins? Sorry God just sees black and white, he his just.
He is described as 'holy' - the idea of him being in the presence of sin is a nuclear reaction (also commonly referred to as wrath).... But thank God for Jesus eh? His death on the cross absorbs all sin (thats the secret).
I can say I know him as the kindest person I've ever met.
The colour black is always black. That door swings two ways... I accept gays just as readily as I accept a liar. I love them both unconditionally. What you choose to do with your own life is your own business. Just make sure to love one another.

I don't judge or preach hate. I love unconditionally as best I can. Do i think its wrong (gay)? I know a lot of gay people have 'father' issues... etc and a research shows a shorter life expectancy... (pro-gay research too http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archiv ... n/05060606)
(based on the higher turn over of partners, emotional stressors, depression, suicide, the risk of disease and HIV/AIDS etc)

Personally i don't think its natural (adam & eve not adam and steve). Its not for me to say whether its wrong, thats preaching hate and condemnation. You mad bro?

You can neither prove nor disprove God exists. Yet I have 'experiences' and can share how he has changed my life personally & quite miraculously. Witness/testimony/personal stories of healing & freedom nothing can take that away.

bigoted? you mean a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas etc.?
I just told you i accept gays - love the gay but i hate what it does to people. I hate the effects of sin.
Yes I think its wrong.
Sinister? Nonsense? Sorry I giggle...
My concept of love is taken from the most recent, current & cutting edge research you can get. I have a personal relationship with my creator that I believe is real and he speaks to me in many ways and on way through that book.

Call me all the names you want i haven't a care in the world. That text is alive to me, and God speaks wisdom to me everyday. Next time you look at Jesus up on the cross - just hear the God man saying with arms outstretched 'I love you this much'

[Vlad the Impaler]

Sorry, I don't read really long posts but i think I get your drift from the end bit.

The queer Communards pianist in the below link is now a Christian parish priest and openly gay. He believes in God and accepts that it's an old text. Wiki him. One of my favourite Communards songs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOArNfHCKqU

[gemma]

I well believe the bible has stood the test of time... and is able to withstand any onslaught of criticism.

I know a few who set out to try and disprove it ended up believing it when they actually dig beyond the surface and read it with an open mind and in context.

I believe it still is and will continue to be the best seller of all time...

[Vlad the Impaler]

Well, the present Pope has stated that people should spend less time reading and analysing the bible and more time out helping others in need - which is my personal interpretation of being a good Christian.

Each to their own though. btw, you commit the sin of Pride when you say things like 'God sees in Black and White'. No person can say or assume what God thinks.

Anyway, that's my bit of religion for this year.

[richard dawkins]

You actually sound a bit dictatorish in your response! Ya, I read the posts... but I had a feeling the discussion was headed towards religion = all war so i just jumped ahead.
Atheists Godless or anti-God men have a lot to answer for. Atheism stands for nothing how can you do anything in the name of atheism?

Agree. You can't do anything in the name of atheism.

Yes people kill for a BELIEF in something. Atheists have the most faith as they believe in nothingness, yet seem to cause the most harm with humanistic ideas (we know better than God ideas).

Incorrect. Atheism is no faith.
From your website - which is Christian propaganda site: Yes Atheists seem to cause the most harm but if you took a more objective view of facts it would harder to hold that view. Have a look at countries which are the most atheist - not by force but by free means: Sweden, Norway, Iceland. They have much better records on wealth distribution, the environment, helping refugees, foreign aid etc.

Do I compare being gay with lying and stealing? Sin is sin. Meaning your falling short of what God intends for you - which is all good. You're better than that. Oh you mean big sins & little sins? Sorry God just sees black and white, he his just.
He is described as 'holy' - the idea of him being in the presence of sin is a nuclear reaction (also commonly referred to as wrath).... But thank God for Jesus eh? His death on the cross absorbs all sin (thats the secret).
I can say I know him as the kindest person I've ever met.
The colour black is always black. That door swings two ways... I accept gays just as readily as I accept a liar. I love them both unconditionally. What you choose to do with your own life is your own business. Just make sure to love one another.

That's a terrible bigoted viewpoint.

I don't judge or preach hate.

Yes you do. You just don't see it as hate because your God vindicates it.

I love unconditionally as best I can. Do i think its wrong (gay)? I know a lot of gay people have 'father' issues... etc and a research shows a shorter life expectancy... (pro-gay research too http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archiv ... n/05060606)
(based on the higher turn over of partners, emotional stressors, depression, suicide, the risk of disease and HIV/AIDS etc)

Oh another Christian propaganda site. You really challenge yourself don't you?

Personally i don't think its natural (adam & eve not adam and steve). Its not for me to say whether its wrong, thats preaching hate and condemnation. You mad bro?

You contradict yourself. One minute it is a sin, one minute it's not wrong.

I just told you i accept gays - love the gay but i hate what it does to people. I hate the effects of sin.
Yes I think its wrong.
Sinister? Nonsense? Sorry I giggle...

yes you have bigoted, sinister views about gayness

My concept of love is taken from the most recent, current & cutting edge research you can get. I have a personal relationship with my creator that I believe is real and he speaks to me in many ways and on way through that book.

Call me all the names you want i haven't a care in the world. That text is alive to me, and God speaks wisdom to me everyday. Next time you look at Jesus up on the cross - just hear the God man saying with arms outstretched 'I love you this much'

[/quote]You are perfect example of the dangers of religion. Your religion makes you take a certain view of gays which is pretty mean. I oppose bigots such as yourself and I am glad now that maybe some people will realise that some people who go about "love" are deep down bigots that shouldn't be trusted.

[davidp]

The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved. The Bible says that we must accept by faith the fact that God exists: “And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him” (Hebrews 11:6). If God so desired, He could simply appear and prove to the whole world that He exists. But if He did that, there would be no need for faith. “Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed’” (John 20:29).

That does not mean, however, that there is no evidence of God’s existence. The Bible states, “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world” (Psalm 19:1-4). Looking at the stars, understanding the vastness of the universe, observing the wonders of nature, seeing the beauty of a sunset—all of these things point to a Creator God. If these were not enough, there is also evidence of God in our own hearts. Ecclesiastes 3:11 tells us, “…He has also set eternity in the hearts of men.” Deep within us is the recognition that there is something beyond this life and someone beyond this world. We can deny this knowledge intellectually, but God’s presence in us and all around us is still obvious. Despite this, the Bible warns that some will still deny God’s existence: “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God’” (Psalm 14:1). Since the vast majority of people throughout history, in all cultures, in all civilizations, and on all continents believe in the existence of some kind of God, there must be something (or someone) causing this belief.

In addition to the biblical arguments for God’s existence, there are logical arguments. First, there is the ontological argument. The most popular form of the ontological argument uses the concept of God to prove God’s existence. It begins with the definition of God as “a being than which no greater can be conceived.” It is then argued that to exist is greater than to not exist, and therefore the greatest conceivable being must exist. If God did not exist, then God would not be the greatest conceivable being, and that would contradict the very definition of God.

A second argument is the teleological argument. The teleological argument states that since the universe displays such an amazing design, there must have been a divine Designer. For example, if the Earth were significantly closer or farther away from the sun, it would not be capable of supporting much of the life it currently does. If the elements in our atmosphere were even a few percentage points different, nearly every living thing on earth would die. The odds of a single protein molecule forming by chance is 1 in 10243 (that is a 1 followed by 243 zeros). A single cell is comprised of millions of protein molecules.

A third logical argument for God’s existence is called the cosmological argument. Every effect must have a cause. This universe and everything in it is an effect. There must be something that caused everything to come into existence. Ultimately, there must be something “un-caused” in order to cause everything else to come into existence. That “un-caused” cause is God.

A fourth argument is known as the moral argument. Every culture throughout history has had some form of law. Everyone has a sense of right and wrong. Murder, lying, stealing, and immorality are almost universally rejected. Where did this sense of right and wrong come from if not from a holy God?

Despite all of this, the Bible tells us that people will reject the clear and undeniable knowledge of God and believe a lie instead. Romans 1:25 declares, “They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.” The Bible also proclaims that people are without excuse for not believing in God: “For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse” (Romans 1:20).

People claim to reject God’s existence because it is “not scientific” or “because there is no proof.” The true reason is that once they admit that there is a God, they also must realize that they are responsible to God and in need of forgiveness from Him (Romans 3:23, 6:23). If God exists, then we are accountable to Him for our actions. If God does not exist, then we can do whatever we want without having to worry about God judging us. That is why many of those who deny the existence of God cling strongly to the theory of naturalistic evolution—it gives them an alternative to believing in a Creator God. God exists and ultimately everyone knows that He exists. The very fact that some attempt so aggressively to disprove His existence is in fact an argument for His existence.

How do we know God exists? As Christians, we know God exists because we speak to Him every day. We do not audibly hear Him speaking to us, but we sense His presence, we feel His leading, we know His love, we desire His grace. Things have occurred in our lives that have no possible explanation other than God. God has so miraculously saved us and changed our lives that we cannot help but acknowledge and praise His existence. None of these arguments can persuade anyone who refuses to acknowledge what is already obvious. In the end, God’s existence must be accepted by faith (Hebrews 11:6). Faith in God is not a blind leap into the dark; it is safe step into a well-lit room where the vast majority of people are already standing.

[richard dawkins]

Please do not turn this into a debate about whether the Christian God exists or not. The discussion got going by looking for clarification on a meeting in Donabate and their attendee's attitudes to gay people. Some of these people are going around claiming everyone is welcome and they are just spreading love. They are not spreading love by the sounds of it.

We could both post books with arguments whether God exists or not People can read them if they want (the arguments you have all quoted have all been refuted by Bertrand Russell, me and many others I am surprised you are still trying to use them). But that's kinda of avoiding the gay issue. Just clarify your stances to gay people please.

So far, we have:
Davep: equivocates
Gemma: they are sinners because gay behaviour is a sin just like stealing is a sin - God doesn't differentiate.
But you should hate what they do rather than them which you should love.
Richard Dawkins: 100% gays are not sinners or engaging in anything immoral, because they are doing no harm to anyone unless there is not full consent. In fact, they are just increasing their own happiness, love so that's actually a good thing.

Anyone else?

[acdublin]

Wow, this topic has moved off its original point

Here's a fine article by Shane L. Windmeyer, national leader in the American LGBT movement and Executive Director of Campus Pride, an organisation that supports lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender college students.

I think it provides a picture of how people who disagree on this issue might live in peace and respect with one another.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/shane-l-w ... 64379.html

By the way, Alpha is on tonight. 8pm at Keelings pub in Donabate. There were 16 of us last week and we'd love you to pop in.

Thanks,
Andy

PS As ever, Richard, hoping we can have that pint together? You know where to find me

[Donabate Hatter]

Richard

I notice that you were very insistent that people answer your question about their views on gays, but when you were asked a question:

'Richard, do you ask everyone their views on homosexuality or just people who profess to have religious faith? Do we allow equal homosexual marriage in this country ? Therefore is every voter in this democracy a homophobe?'

You just ignored it!!

For the record, I have no problem with gays or those that do or don't believe in a God.

[richard dawkins]

'Richard, do you ask everyone their views on homosexuality or just people who profess to have religious faith?

Some religious people.

Do we allow equal homosexual marriage in this country ?

No. But we should.

Therefore is every voter in this democracy a homophobe?'

No. There is used to be widespread discrimination against gays. As I said it used to be considered illegal!
Now, as the country becomes more secular there is not as much homophobia and discrimination. There is widespread support for gay marriage from the constitutional convention, to amnesty international and to most decent Irish people even decent religious people.

Andy, would you like to tell us where you stand on gay behaviour? Is it is a sin and as bad as stealing? It has taken quite a while to get answers from Gemma and davidp, can you give us one quick snappy answer.

[gemma]

Wow, are you still here?
Take out your 'humanistic worldview' ear plugs and 'hear' creation alone screaming that there is a God. From every sunrise to sunset. From the perfect tilt of the earth to sustain life, to every unique person on this planet.
Yes
I think being gay is a sin in God's eyes. Its morally wrong but i still love gays, im sure jesus would have hung out with gays if he hung out with Tax collectors, prostitutes and sinners.
Get over your christians are evil gay litmus test thing. I didn't make the rules, but i damn well play by them.
I am not God - (obviously)
Yet I am instructed to love gay people. And I do. I believe Jesus died on the cross for gay people just as much as straight people... he loves us.

I believe you are acting unreasonable as everything you process - is filtered through your 'humanistic dawkins view' its kind of tunnel vision - and you insinuate that I am closed off? Do you think that the God delusion is something new? There is nothing new under the sun.
You can only see things with faith which takes a bit of an o p e n m i n d

Who are you to judge me anyways? That I am a 'bigot' follow a 'sinister path?' And that I am deluded, believing nonsense? Because I hate whats wrong and love people simultaneously?

Do you know what - You actually MUST have more faith than me - i mean... to honestly look at the amazing world we live in, where no two snowflakes are the same, where the human body is astounding, from the smallness of each atom and (quark - look it up) to the monstrous size and distance of our universe and believe in:-
NOTHINGNESS... you believe there is nothing?
Fairplay
That takes a lot of faith!!
Way more than I have!

I have relationship with my creator - he is the kindest person i've ever met. I have promises, a hope and future to look forward to. Every situation he is with me and for me. You should meet me him then you'd see. Perhaps try an Alpha Course?

I'm not the odd one out here either - Something like well over 2/3's of the world (4 billion) believes in some form of a higher being/creator.

Sorry for the 'quite a while' response. I have a lot of other things to do than check up on the 'donabateportrane.net' forum.

[richard dawkins]

Who are you to judge me anyways? That I am a 'bigot' follow a 'sinister path?' And that I am deluded, believing nonsense? Because I hate whats wrong and love people simultaneously?

It would appear you only hate gayness because your holy book tells you to.

I'm not the odd one out here either - Something like well over 2/3's of the world (4 billion) believes in some form of a higher being/creator.

Well humans have believed in thousands of different gods. Some of the Gods more sinister than others. But as stated I am not interested in talking about that. I was just interested in your views about gays.

[richard dawkins]

Interesting comments from Mary McAleese today:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-a ... -1.1647572

“I don’t like my church’s attitude to gay people. I don’t like ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’. If you are the so-called sinner, who likes to be called that? We also know that within the priesthood a very large number of priests are gay.”

She also criticised words attributed to the previous Pope on this subject as being contradictory. “Things written by [Pope] Benedict, for example, were completely contradictory to modern science and to modern understanding, and to the understanding of most Catholics nowadays in relation to homosexuality.

“Nowadays, it is not something that is perceived as something that is intrinsically disordered. Homosexual conduct is not seen as evil,” said Mrs McAleese.

It looks like Catholics are the new Protestants. Challenging unquestionable dogma from their leaders.
Evangelical Protestants are the new Catholics. They have the unquestionable truth (The scripture in the Bible).

[gemma]

According to science - alcohol is a solution...

All have sinned... i know i have.

There is also a difference between sin and evil.

[richard dawkins]

According to science - alcohol is a solution...

All have sinned... i know i have.

There is also a difference between sin and evil.

According to common sense you are not making much sense.

[gemma]

Jokes...
Take a chill pill, you atheists are all so serious!

[richard dawkins]

You're the ones who get worried about sex. We just enjoy it.

[gemma]

Oh believe me i enjoooy it! P the L!