Senate stay or go?

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Should the Senate stay or go?

Poll ended at 05 Oct 2013, 12:19

Get rid of Senate
15
88%
Keep it
2
12%
Won't vote
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 17
Mr. Stupid
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Really hope this stupid thing goes. All it is a way for political parties to nominate mates. Just when you think Darragh O'Brien and FF have been kicked out of Dublin North they show up in the Senate. G.V. Wright did the same.

Have to laugh at the likes of money bags Fergal Quinn going on about reforming it. The Dail has plenty of independents - right across the political spectrum. There is no need for special house for them. Or political cronies. Or academics who don't live in the real world.

I don't care if it is costs 1 million or 20 million. Just get rid of the stupid thing.
jack white
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I've never seen any point in having a Seanad.

It's an unelected house that can hold up legislation brought forward by the assembly which has been properly elected by the voters. I can't think of anything more undemocratic.

Interesting that FF, who wanted to abolish it a few years ago, want to keep it now that they've hardly got any seats in the Dail and need somewhere to blood future candidates. Once again they're putting party before country, as they always have done.

I'm voting to get rid of it.
micropoodle

my opinion FWIW (doesn't make me right obviously....)

getting rid of the Seanad buys FG time so that they don't have to do anything about the overcrowded Dail.
This is effectively a distraction from the main issue of reform.

there is an argument that says a country of our size doesn't need a second house and maybe thats true, although my big concern here is that the Dail, and as such the ruling part(ies) will have complete rule over pretty much everything that they decide to implement.
For (extreme) example, a majority government can decide in a budget to get rid of medical cards completely. the budget will of course be voted through in the Dail and will never have to pass a non-existant Seanad stage.

The other issue I have with this is the lies on the FG posters of €20m in savings. Many commentators state that the real savings will in fact be closer to €10m.
Although not unexpected, Enda's complete refusal to talk in any way unscripted makes me just want to vote against anything he is in favour of!

So I will be voting no.
In the interin I would much rather see a reformed Seanad but in parallel a reformed Dail. TD numbers should be reduced by at least 40, though bringing it under 100 would be preferential and TD's should be somehow forced to concentrate on National and not local issues.

A no vote, would in my opinion, send a message to FG that Dail reform is required.
A yes vote would ensure that in the lifetime of this government, they will have no intention of addressing the issue of Dail reform as they will deem the people to have decided that Dail reform isnt required.
Mr. Stupid
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The senate is not a second house it is a third house. Over 60% of legislation comes from the EU not the Dail. The Dail is effectively a second house and the senate the pointless third house.

I think you will be waiting a long while for a reformed senate considering it can take 8 years to implement an EU environmental directive and over 20 years to legislate for the X case. All these people who say it should be reformed have different ideas - none of which will really stand out as really good ideas.

Get rid of the senate and then reform the Dail and local government.

FG or Labour don't have to reform the senate and it would be a waste of government time when there isn't anything close to one good suggestion as to what it could be reformed to. It would be going down a rabbit hole that never ends.

Just end rid of the stupid, elitist, back scratching thing.
micropoodle

If The referendum is passed, FG will deem themselves to have done their job and made savings. They have absolutely no intention of reforming the dail. None whatsoever.

By voting no I believe it will send a signal. I would like to think that signal would start them on the path to dail reform which is the important bit
Mr. Stupid
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Play the man not the ball. Who cares about FG. If FG came out said we're never going to get rid of the Senate because we like to give our mates jobs - you'd go mental. If FG said we are going to reform the senate so you pick every senator yourselves - you'd have another Dail and more FG heads.

By voting No you are just protest voting. Which has never achieved anything.

They already have proposals for reforming the Dail - reducing the number of TDs. Do you have a conspiracy theory for that too?

This is unbelievable. For the first time we finally have an admission from our political class that we have too many of them. And for a change the political class will have to make some serious cost savings and not just everyone else. This is incredible. And you interpret it all as a conspiracy theory and want to send a signal.

Well good luck to you. I prefer real radical reform and it's happening. So far in this recession it has been the common man who has taken the brunt. Now the political class are facing 60 redundancies of cushy jobs. They should get it in the ass.
Last edited by Mr. Stupid on 30 Sep 2013, 23:05, edited 4 times in total.
Derek
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Mr. Stupid wrote:I prefer real radical reform and it's happening. So far in this recession it has been the common man who has taken the brunt. Now the political class are facing 60 redundancies of cushy jobs. They should get it in the ass.
Yep I'm all for reform too and in a particular an end to a political body which is elected in a manifestly undemocratic fashion and has no accountability or relevance to the ordinary man. It's an awful pity that half the Dáil aren't going the same way.

Does anyone want to bet that the 60 or so will exit with a very generous scrappage deal?
Mr. Stupid
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Derek wrote:
Mr. Stupid wrote:I prefer real radical reform and it's happening. So far in this recession it has been the common man who has taken the brunt. Now the political class are facing 60 redundancies of cushy jobs. They should get it in the ass.
Yep I'm all for reform too and in a particular an end to a political body which is elected in a manifestly undemocratic fashion and has no accountability or relevance to the ordinary man. It's an awful pity that half the Dáil aren't going the same way.

Does anyone want to bet that the 60 or so will exit with a very generous scrappage deal?
Of course they will. But they all be last 60 hopefully.
pat mustard
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bin it,

Reform Dail, that is who we vote for .

or boot them out.

how about a Monster Raving Looney party here otherwise?
micropoodle

Mr. Stupid wrote:.

By voting No you are just protest voting. Which has never achieved anything.

They already have proposals for reforming the Dail - reducing the number of TDs. Do you have a conspiracy theory for that too?

This is unbelievable. For the first time we finally have an admission from our political class that we have too many of them. And for a change the political class will have to make some serious cost savings and not just everyone else. This is incredible. And you interpret it all as a conspiracy theory and want to send a signal.

Well good luck to you. I prefer real radical reform and it's happening. So far in this recession it has been the common man who has taken the brunt. Now the political class are facing 60 redundancies of cushy jobs. They should get it in the ass.
As usual you like to attack people with an opinion that differs from yours.

Firstly mine is not a protest vote.
I firmly believe we need a second house where issues and legislation are debated a second time. I don't like the idea of any new legislation proposed by government being automatically approved simply because a party/government that were voted in and given a mandate based on certain election promises, have a majority. This means that every single budget measure will now automatically be guaranteed to be passed due to the party whip system. If a government decided to hold 2 budgets per year (once the seanad is abolished), then they can do so. This is my biggest concern.

Granted, if there is a government majority in the Seanad also then this could still happen, but that is where I'd like to see reform happen. Why cant we elect our Seanad members directly, whilst reducing their numbers in half?

You say that they already have proposals for reforming the Dail, but you and I know that this is not going to happen, certainly not in the lifetime of this government, which means that for the next 7 years at least we will continue to have a 163 member Dail.
Last year the Dail and Seanad cost us €106m. That works out at a staggering €480,000 per member. (although Dail members cost more than Seanad members).
Seanad abolition passing (and yes it will pass) buys the government time so that they wont have to address the issue of Dail reform. Can you agree with that?
Mr. Stupid
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micropoodle wrote:
Mr. Stupid wrote:.

By voting No you are just protest voting. Which has never achieved anything.

They already have proposals for reforming the Dail - reducing the number of TDs. Do you have a conspiracy theory for that too?

This is unbelievable. For the first time we finally have an admission from our political class that we have too many of them. And for a change the political class will have to make some serious cost savings and not just everyone else. This is incredible. And you interpret it all as a conspiracy theory and want to send a signal.

Well good luck to you. I prefer real radical reform and it's happening. So far in this recession it has been the common man who has taken the brunt. Now the political class are facing 60 redundancies of cushy jobs. They should get it in the ass.
As usual you like to attack people with an opinion that differs from yours.

Firstly mine is not a protest vote.
I firmly believe we need a second house where issues and legislation are debated a second time. I don't like the idea of any new legislation proposed by government being automatically approved simply because a party/government that were voted in and given a mandate based on certain election promises, have a majority. This means that every single budget measure will now automatically be guaranteed to be passed due to the party whip system. If a government decided to hold 2 budgets per year (once the seanad is abolished), then they can do so. This is my biggest concern.

Granted, if there is a government majority in the Seanad also then this could still happen, but that is where I'd like to see reform happen. Why cant we elect our Seanad members directly, whilst reducing their numbers in half?

You say that they already have proposals for reforming the Dail, but you and I know that this is not going to happen, certainly not in the lifetime of this government, which means that for the next 7 years at least we will continue to have a 163 member Dail.
Last year the Dail and Seanad cost us €106m. That works out at a staggering €480,000 per member. (although Dail members cost more than Seanad members).
Seanad abolition passing (and yes it will pass) buys the government time so that they wont have to address the issue of Dail reform. Can you agree with that?
Sorry if you felt my opinion was an attack on you.

The Senate has never blocked any budget or any legislation and never will. It does not have that power. It only has the power to delay legislation and has done that twice in the last 50 years or something.

What happens is a Minister occasionally walks into the Senate; they say things to him and he moves on and does whatever he is going to do anyway.

If you want to give it real power like say another Dail or the Senate in the US you would of course have to change how the members are elected. It would be a painful process to get everyone to agree on this and it would more than likely end up - at best - as Dail Two. This would be bad because it would be way more expensive than the Senate currently is (TDs get more than Senators). You could offset the costs of decreasing the number of TDs but I just don't see where you are going with all this. Less TD's but in more houses?? What exactly is the point?

As for FG - well a lot of their party are quite upset about all this. Including nearly all their senators. I am surprised the government are doing it. I can't remember anything being put forward by Irish politicians where the main losers are them. The only exception is this Senate referendum.

My hope is that when we get rid of the Senate the focus will be on the Dail and local government next which need major reform as you point out.

The Senate bull sh*t has been in the media for the last ten years or so. Let's finish it and move on.
Quello Serio
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178 views of this topic, and only 13 people could be arsed voting.
micropoodle

The prime time debate tonight made me even more determined to vote no.

From John Crowns excellent comments and reference to FGs IOU to us on Dail reform, to the guy in the audiences analogy of 'just because you don't use a fire escape doesn't mean you should get rid of it, to the lady barrister asking the simple question 'what's the rush?'

As much as I despise all things FF, Michael Martin won this debate hands down. It's no wonder Enda didn't want to take part. He would have been slaughtered, particularly on the subject of the €20m
davidp
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I watched also last night and even before the discussion I was voting yes to dissolve that farce which hides behind the democracy flagpole and has always been a self-serving entity. It doesn’t matter if it costs 20m or 1m it is a waste of money and all of us in the private/public sector and our households have had to suffer downsizing and cost cutting why not that lot.

I work for a company that has gone from 44 to 27 employees (by the way they are a pan European company)
and we are working more efficiently now if the truth be known. As for the economic sovernity of this country it was destroyed by the failed bank guarantee (There was no public vote on that was there..)and unless Irish people rise above a sense of entitlement regarding government and except we are no longer in control of the financial running of this now failed state, thanks to the apathy of the people the gombeen parish pump politicians will continue to fail and be rewarded with handsome pensions. All the young people are jumping ship as I did for 16 years to Canada and we will be left carrying the burden of debt to our graves which may happen either way but is it not time to take our heads out of the village pump. I am sure my comments will prove divisive to the board but as someone like many who left Ireland with nothing literally in my pockets except a strong work ethic and self-belief I for one can’t wait to effect change and I wouldn’t stop at the Seanad..
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Ken
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Can't see the point of it myself. It's not democratically elected and I can't think of one thing it has done during my lifetime. It's just a talking shop for those who are owed favours by political parties and ex-TDs (i.e. were rejected by the democratic process such as Darragh O'Brien).
Regards,

Ken.
Mr. Stupid
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micropoodle wrote:The prime time debate tonight made me even more determined to vote no.

From John Crowns excellent comments and reference to FGs IOU to us on Dail reform, to the guy in the audiences analogy of 'just because you don't use a fire escape doesn't mean you should get rid of it, to the lady barrister asking the simple question 'what's the rush?'

As much as I despise all things FF, Michael Martin won this debate hands down. It's no wonder Enda didn't want to take part. He would have been slaughtered, particularly on the subject of the €20m
FF were in favour of getting rid of it but did a U Turn to promote their leader and engage in some populism and scare mongering. Nice tactics to make people forget they RUINED the country.
micropoodle

Mr. Stupid wrote: FF were in favour of getting rid of it but did a U Turn to promote their leader and engage in some populism and scare mongering. Nice tactics to make people forget they RUINED the country.
of course they were and of course they did, but i've long since learned that there is absolutely nothing we can do about the past. we need to focus on the future. FG's tactics in both the Dail and in debates such as last night is to rehash the past when they cant answer a question. They spend a lot of time attacking FF's and SF's history and their historical decisions instead of focusing on the question they have been asked. Diversionary tactics. That's politics I suppose.

I really hate writing about FF in any sort of positive light (it's hard for me to even type this! :D ) but people can change their minds.
micropoodle

Ken wrote:Can't see the point of it myself. It's not democratically elected and I can't think of one thing it has done during my lifetime. It's just a talking shop for those who are owed favours by political parties and ex-TDs (i.e. were rejected by the democratic process such as Darragh O'Brien).
this is in fact part of the problem when putting a referendum to the general public. Most people don't educate themselves about the subject matter. I'm not for one second indicating that you havent educated yourself on this Ken by the way, but I never really understood what the Seanad did until recently myself when I began reading a lot more about it. (I was a YES voter until relatively recently)

The Seanad has stopped, delayed, amended, inserted and deleted items of legislation.

The 2012 personal insolvency act had 245 amendments made to it by the Seanad. FG don't mention this on their posters. With no Seanad, this act would have passed without these 245 amendments that were deemed important enough to be included. There are many many many other examples of this. Best to Google!

May Robinson, as Senator, was the person who proposed to end the discrimination of children born outside marriage.

Another example is John Crown.....this is what he has done (taken from Wiki)

"Since election to the Seanad Crown has brought three bills before the house, The Reporting of Lobbying in Criminal Legal Cases Bill 2011, the Protection of Children's Health from Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012.,and the Seanad Electoral Reform Bill 2013"

Thousands of bills were proposed firstly by members of the Seanad. Please look them up.

What's the rush on this? Really
Minidigger
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I dont think the Dail is robust or transparent enough to be seen as a single all knowing entity, That said the Senate is hopelessly under equipped (from a senatorial knowledge/interest) to act as support to the Dail.

I see no value to it, and will vote no, Even if there was no cost saving (whatever that may from be 3 to 20 mil.) - I would still vote no.

Absenteeism is rampant, 97% of electorate have no input into senatorial placements, Vote casting is hit and miss at best , 50% of the senate voted during the recent personal insolvency bill.

Countries of a similar size to Ireland within the EU all work to a single house model, Norway, Demark, Iceland - Aren't these some of the Baltic nations we want to "emulate".
Mr. Stupid
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Ok Mircopoodle, your argument for No is to send FG a message, you don't like the 20million reference and you think a No vote will get more and better reform.

If you don't mind me saying so these are pretty poor reasons. If not terrible. You even inferred the Senate could stop a bad budget or medical cards being scrapped going through - it can't. This is factually 100% wrong.

Where the f are you getting that from if you don't mind me asking?
micropoodle

If a majority of Senators agree, a bill can e presented to the President for signing.
The President in turn can put it to the people in the form of a referendum.

By abolishing the Seanad we are removing both of these provisions, giving the Dail (and specifically the majority government) absolute power.

Please stop misrepresenting me by saying I'm doing this to Send FG a message. You can clearly see my many reasons for not wanting to get rid of the Seanad, but like Bruton last night you are ignoring these points.

Can you comment in my points in relation to what the Seanad has done? ie: Mary robinsons bill, the 245 amendments to the personal insolvency act etc. Do you not deem these important?

With no Seanad, no amendments will happen as the majority government will be guaranteed approval no matter what they put in a bill
Mr. Stupid
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micropoodle wrote:If a majority of Senators agree, a bill can e presented to the President for signing.
The President in turn can put it to the people in the form of a referendum.
Reference please. Don't see anything in the constitution for that. It has also *never* happened.
More info please.
Please stop misrepresenting me by saying I'm doing this to Send FG a message. You can clearly see my many reasons for not wanting to get rid of the Seanad, but like Bruton last night you are ignoring these points.

Can you comment in my points in relation to what the Seanad has done? ie: Mary robinsons bill, the 245 amendments to the personal insolvency act etc. Do you not deem these important?
That's the only point you have made. Have you read any of those amendments? Here is a list of some of them:

http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/amen ... 2d-sc3.pdf
In page 27, subsection (6)(a), line 14, after “its” to insert “net”.
and
In page 27, subsection (6)(a), line 15, to delete “irrespective of” and substitute
“taking in to account”
and wait for it...
In page 49, subsection (1)(a)(i), line 16, after “domiciled” to insert “and
ordinarily resident”.
So there you were thinking you were great with your 200 amendments. But did you read any of them? Probably not. It shows how irrelevant the back scratching club is irrelevant.
With no Seanad, no amendments will happen as the majority government will be guaranteed approval no matter what they put in a bill
No the amendments can still happen. Usually in legislation, there are draft copies after draft copies passed around and it takes years to finish it. As I said at the beginning it can take 8 years to complete a simple Bill.
Last edited by Mr. Stupid on 02 Oct 2013, 20:50, edited 1 time in total.
micropoodle

I'm on a phone and do not going to post references because it's a pain doing that on a phone. Google that there for yourself. You'll did it's one of the top 3 links returned.

As for the rest of your post I'm getting tired now! I've done well by being one of the only people debating with you but now I'm done! :D

I'm voting No in Friday and very happy to be doing so. Be thankful for democracy eh?
micropoodle

Ps: it's under article 27 where it states the power of president to refer bills to the people.
This will be abolished as part of this referendum

Under article 15.10 we will give complete power to the Dail alone to decide which bills will be debated, which will be dropped and which will be passed without debate.

The Dail will have the right to enable eu laws including treaty amendments which will override our constitution .

Lots of peripherals that will happen as a result of a yes vote that aren't being publicised.

Please don't ask me for links, it's all written in the specific wording of this amendment, but obviously not on the yes voters literature


Are you happy thatthe dail will have absolute power? Be honest now. A simple yes or no answer
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