Water meters

[micropoodle]

I don't doubt you sommie. If they are blocking anyone or breaking the law they should be arrested and prosecuted

[pat mustard]

is the traffic still messed up now.?

got stuck in it at 4.30. But the dog want a few lamb chops for dinner so need to head out again.

Bloke in protest was oddly taking pics of all the cars in the jam.

Hope thats put to some use. er....

[Jabba]

I suspect this issue will go the way of the property tax and the "looney left" will lose again. (see link below)
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/po ... 04781.html

This is a tax imposed by a elected Government and the only way this can be changed is that the next Govt abolish or such political pressure is brought to bear that would make FG fear they will lose the next election. I think the grey brigade campaign was brilliant because they made a very good political (non violent campaign).
I think FG have made a judgement that when the next election is held- the vast majority of voters will pull back and wont vote for the "looney left" or Fianna Fail and they will remain in power. Something I learnt in school a long time ago is the first priority of any Government ............ is to stay in power.

Unfortunately we don't run a "a la carte" tax system that you cant decide to pay the taxes you agree with.

As for the protesters described on the forum - the only ones I saw was driving in Beverton on Monday evening and they were blocking one side of the entrance to the estate causing disturbance and danger to the residents. I suspect these are a "rent a mob" and not even from the area - just out to cause trouble - as i didn't recognize any of them - should be arrested for public obstruction !

[Mr. Stupid]

As for the protesters described on the forum - the only ones I saw was driving in Beverton on Monday evening and they were blocking one side of the entrance to the estate causing disturbance and danger to the residents. I suspect these are a "rent a mob" and not even from the area - just out to cause trouble - as i didn't recognize any of them - should be arrested for public obstruction !

I agree. I doubt many of these people in Donabate. There was a anti water charges meeting on a few months back and very few attended.

The reason why these people are protesting is to try and whoop up support for the loony left. Maybe not in Donabate but in fairness to the lunatics their vote has dramatically increased from protesting. It would be good instead of protesting 247, they gave us some economic alternatives where the numbers add up.

[gandalf the grey]

Totally agree with sommie, didn't recognise one of these people who caused major tailback today at school pick up time, and again this evening in the village. They are not representing me !!! A nuisance is what they are and a waste of gardai time and energy. Protest by not paying by all means but don't disrupt the whole village !!!!

[Ken]

When I drove by around 5.20 p.m. they were opposite Keeling's. There was a van for some civil engineering company parked on that side of the road with hazards on causing the obstruction. This possibly has something to do with IW.

The protestors weren't on the road, but on the grass outside the apartments. They had a banner which read Fingal Battalion... I only got a quick glimpse of it. Like others have said, I'd say these are rent a mob and have nothing to do with the peninsula.

[diggerbarnes]

I wonder what the story is if they decide to protest outside your house. I don't want my kids coming and going with these nut jobs around. Can we tell them to clear off?

[Ken]

I would stay well clear of them. Probably connected with Eirigi.

Their level of intelligence can be seen in the picture below. This guy was protesting outside Croke Park at the time the GAA were voting on whether to allow the FAI and IRFU to use Croke Park when the Aviva was being built.

foreign games.jpg (24.35 KiB) Viewed 9734 times

[Donabate Hatter]

That has to be photo shopped Ken, can anyone really be that stupid!!!!!!

[Ken]

That has to be photo shopped Ken, can anyone really be that stupid!!!!!!

No, remember it in the papers at the time.

[Ann O]

When I drove by around 5.20 p.m. they were opposite Keeling's. There was a van for some civil engineering company parked on that side of the road with hazards on causing the obstruction. This possibly has something to do with IW.

The protestors weren't on the road, but on the grass outside the apartments. They had a banner which read Fingal Battalion... I only got a quick glimpse of it. Like others have said, I'd say these are rent a mob and have nothing to do with the peninsula.

They Nolan Civil Engineering guys had to use the toilet in Keelings apparently

Videos of protest here :- https://www.facebook.com/DonabatePortranesayNo/

[micropoodle]

i watched that video you linked to.
what i don't understand is why the 6 or 7 or so protestors who were walking down the middle of a main road were not moved off it, and failing that arrested?

like i said many times in this thread, i am 100% against water charges in their present form but this is no way to protest against them. By all means, protest in this manner against a brutal dictatorship, but not against 3 guys on a wage doing their job. Following them into the toilet? FFS, come on.

were the guards not stepping in just to keep things calm perhaps? Instructing them to move off the road coave been done calmly. After that, if they resist arrest then they deserve everything they get.

I'm all for protest, but by legitimate, legal and peaceful means.

Again though, these were 6 or 7 people max. And it's these people that will be spoken about on here and in the media, not the 99% of other protestors who do so correctly.

On another note, spoke to a few of my neighbours about the protest yesterday and the subject came up about payment. I was genuinely surprised to find out that of the 6 neighbours including myself, only 1 had paid the charge so far. It gives me hope!

[jack white]

Interesting that so many of your neighbours are claiming not to have paid. I spoke with two of my neighbours on the same issue a few weeks back and all three of us have paid. Hard to know what the consensus is but official figures suggest about half of people are paying and that will undoubtedly rise gradually.

I don't really get all the protesting and the non-payment.

If there wasn't a water charge the funding would have to revert to central taxation which would have to rise as a result. So you'll be paying anyway. In fact, if you're a worker, you'll be paying more because the taxpayer will be paying for everybody's water charges. So, taxpayers who refuse to pay their water charges are effectively demanding that they pay more for their water than they're currently being asked to. Best of luck with that.....

As for the protesters, they are ostensibly left-wingers but have decided on this occasion to ignore the differences between left and right. Essentially what the left should stand for is a state that does as much as possible for its citizens and raises the maximum amount of taxation in order to cover those costs. The right however believes in less taxation and less involvement from the state. So the current protesters are effectively embracing right wing policies just to cadge a few votes. It means they're merely populists rather than left wingers. They've spotted a way of increasing their vote and ditched their socialist principles. And the biggest of them, Sinn Fein, are part of a government up North that collects water charges; much bigger water charges than we pay down here.

Still, there are plenty of gullible people out there who may well fall for the flawed propaganda of the protesters and non-payers. And they'll vote for people who would get rid of water charges while running the economy so badly that they'd probably make Fianna Fail look almost competent.

[Derek]

If there wasn't a water charge the funding would have to revert to central taxation which would have to rise as a result. So you'll be paying anyway. In fact, if you're a worker, you'll be paying more because the taxpayer will be paying for everybody's water charges.

This to me is the bit that's really being missed because the cost of water has always been covered through central taxation. But why has it suddently become a chargeable commodity? It's not all down to the state of infrastructure.

Likewise the councils have divested themselves of refuse collection which we also pay now have to for now, yet the councils are being bankrolled through property tax, and to an extent previously, motor tax. So we pay more and get less! Sad thing is is that we've always paid for these services through taxation but now, in my opinion, are paying for things on the double as we are now being explicitly charged for them.

I totoally disagree with the protests yesterday though. People like those protestors and their behaviour actually damage legitmate opposition

[jack white]

This to me is the bit that's really being missed because the cost of water has always been covered through central taxation. But why has it suddently become a chargeable commodity?

Simple really. The country went broke (many thanks, Fianna Fail). The national debt went sky high (many thanks again, Fianna Fail). So central taxation couldn't cover everything. At this point, there are two choices. Bring in new charges or increase central taxation. We had lost our sovereignty at that point (many thanks yet again, Fianna Fail) and the Troika decided on the former rather than the latter. Either way, it makes little difference. You would have been paying extra anyway.

Ultimately you're not paying twice for your water. You're paying once for your water and once more to pay for the debt incurred by the bank guarantee (once again, many, many thanks, Fianna Fail).

[Derek]

This to me is the bit that's really being missed because the cost of water has always been covered through central taxation. But why has it suddently become a chargeable commodity?

Simple really. The country went broke (many thanks, Fianna Fail). The national debt went sky high (many thanks again, Fianna Fail). So central taxation couldn't cover everything. At this point, there are two choices. Bring in new charges or increase central taxation. We had lost our sovereignty at that point (many thanks yet again, Fianna Fail) and the Troika decided on the former rather than the latter. Either way, it makes little difference. You would have been paying extra anyway.

Ultimately you're not paying twice for your water. You're paying once for your water and once more to pay for the debt incurred by the bank guarantee (once again, many, many thanks, Fianna Fail).

Jack, we'll agree to disagree. But they could've abolished water charges in the last budget with what the "gave back" to us. If the will was there, this thing could go away...

[micropoodle]

Ultimately you're not paying twice for your water. You're paying once for your water and once more to pay for the debt incurred by the bank guarantee (once again, many, many thanks, Fianna Fail).

this is essentially it. It's not a water charge, it's a bank guarantee tax. simple.

the €1.2bn currently being raised through taxation to pay for our water supply since the 90's....where is that now going to go? Is that going to pay our €150bn or so in debt? If so, then let them come out and say that.

it's a serious question though, where is that €1.2bn going to go now? Either remove those taxes completely (because they were specifically implemented for water), or tell the public that they are being diverted to pay off debt. i've always said I would have much more faith in politicians if they were up front and honest. I hate dishonesty.

this is the biggest issue I have. It's all smoke and mirrors stuff.

in a way you are right in saying that we simply need to pay for water because the country is/was broke. But it's going to cost €1bn+ to just set this quango up in the first place. Half of that would have fixed most of the leaks in the system. Where is the logic?

it's like me selling on eBay, buying a product for €100 to sell it for €50. Any private business would be bankrupt. But because it's public money there's no uproar. The only uproar is from the pro-payers against the people who wont pay. People are missing the bigger picture here.

it's so not about water charges for most people. it's an accumulation of everything from saddling my kids and grandkids with thousands in debt, to massive wasting of pblic money. Successive governments learn nothing. Think about it, €1bn+ to set up this quango, yet people are arguing about a water charge instead of questioning where this money has gone?

crazy altogether.

[glasagusdubh]

absolute nonsense Ken well known that pic was photoshopped


great to see some direct action against an outrageous double taxation.
Forced emigration, family's being evicted,a chronic spike in homelessness and all the while our natural resources worth millions are being exploited by corporate vultures. Protest is required, more gombeen politicians in a different suits won't change anything unfortunately, just steady the ship until we wait for our next crash.

[Mr. Stupid]

Water isn't free. We either pay for it through a water charge or let the PAYE worker pick it all up. The reason why I favour a water charge is because you cannot run an economy where the working man pays for everything and disincentivised from working harder.

The current proposal means the burden is shared. Believer it or not, the water charge doesn't cover the full cost of water it covers about half of it. The PAYE worker picks up the other half.

The reason why I have an issue with burdening the PAYE working for everything is that there is a lot of money floating around our economy for which no-one is paying any tax.

If someone is genuinely impoverished of course they shouldn't have to pay.

If you don't inherit or win money the only way you can get it is through working. When you burden the working man with more and more tax it means you never give him a chance and those rich people who inherit, win or get money through some scam just stay rich.

I have no issue with someone who works harder than me earning more money and having a nicer house but I think the loony left have a huge issue. Why? Because they don't want to work hard and resent anyone who does.

[Ken]

That pic doesn't prove anything. He could have been holding the other sign. Anyway, that's beside the point.

Direct action is not paying the water tax and maybe taking part in the organised peaceful protests. Going around making a nuisance of yourself wasting Garda time and inconveniencing others is not direct action. These so called socialists are victimising the guys at the bottom who are just doing their job. Maybe they should get jobs and they'd have less time to make gobshites of themselves.

[jack white]

so called socialists

Exactly. They call themselves socialists but they are more fascist than socialist. And it's not good to see the 'direct action' that someone mentioned above because it's just a bunch of idiots making fools of themselves. Sometimes there's very little to choose between hard left and hard right and militant water protesters have crossed the line between the two.

There is one reality in politics. In good times taxes come down and spending goes up whereas in bad times it's the opposite. That makes sense. These are hard times and everybody has to pay their way. There has been a lot of resentment about multimillionaires like Tony O'Reilly and Denis O'Brien moving abroad to avoid paying tax. People disapprove of them, not because they're rich, but because they don't contribute to the country in the way that they should. Morally speaking, non-payers of the water tax are pretty much the same as those guys. The figures might be much smaller but the principle is the same.

[micropoodle]

What you're forgetting there though is that one of those people had findings against them for effective bribery of a politician. This is not the same as someone not paying water tax as a protest. It's very clear.

How quickly people forget.

Now this same persons companies are getting contracts to install water meters. Can you not see why people are annoyed? on top of that he is taking the state and others to court so that people can't speak about him.

If it wasn't so serious we could just sit back and laugh about it

Most people it seems are happy to just accept all this and get on with their lives and not question anything the people in charge throw at us. Thankfully there are some good people out there who won't let this go and will make sure it stays in the public domain.

This whole issue really isn't anything to do with water

[Vlad the Impaler]

Listen, if you click your heels three times and shout 'Power to the People!', then the years of chronic under-investment in the national water infrastructure will be magically resolved over night.

Those pesky Bankers and anyone else Vincent Browne can think of will be shot at dawn.

That's the Irish way!

Vive La Revolution! and Viva Las Vegas!