Water Charges

[Vlad the Impaler]

Does anyone know if water meters will be installed in Donabate ahead of the charges next year?

It's my understanding that if the meter isn't installed then they will charge a flat rate based on occupancy.

If that's the case then I won't bother getting an outdoor rain-water tank installed for my gardening needs (which are minimal as I'm pretty lazy in that area).

[micropoodle]

the charge for usage is due to begin in October. Most if not all residents of Donabate wont have meters installed by then so my understanding is that we will be charged the flat rate which means usage wont be a factor for us.

anyway, I have a question that no one has been able to answer.
there's a lot of talk/chat/misinformation out there about us not having to give our PPS numbers to Irish Water as they are a private company etc.
some people say they are not private, whilst others say they are. Some say you dont have to give your PPS, others say you do. My point is, no one actually seems to know. And no one know the consequences of giving/not giving your PPS number or paying/not paying any future bills.

Does anyone on here actually know the truth!
even 2 'politicians' who I wont name, didnt have the asnwers for me.

ps: not looking for opinions, just to point me in the direction of the facts please!

[Trin]

Re: PPS number
My understanding of both this article and of the Irish water application form, was that PPS numbers are only required if a household is applying for allowances

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/ ... -1.1923168

http://www.water.ie/docs/Irish-Water-cu ... NGLISH.pdf

[micropoodle]

hi Trin. thanks for the response.

i understand that, and im sure many people in donabate will be applying for an allowance as there will be children in the house. but i really want to know why we are supplying our PPS numbers to a private company? or is the company in fact private?

i personally dont have a problem giving my PPS number to them, but im confused because no one seems to know the truth. do i have to give PPS number to claim allowance?

is it true that if I send back this form, I am entering into a contract, and if I dont send it back im not entering into a contract but they will still have to supply me?

so many mixed answers but there doesnt appear to be anyone within irish water or government who will actually give us the factual answers

[Ken]

I would have thought they were a semi-state, but maybe I'm wrong.

I presume they need the PPS number to ensure that the people the allowances are being claimed for actually exist. Otherwise it would be easy for people to claim for whatever number of dependents they wished.

[Donabate Hatter]

While I agree it seems that the PPS number is required to get the correct allowance, this just proves what a shite piece of legislation/management etc (and not for the first time) has been used to set up this company, whereby the government have allowed/required the necessity for its citizens to give their PPS to a 'private' company. How many times have we been told never to give out your PPS (or NINO when I lived in the UK) except to an official state body or your employer, as they are one of the building blocks for stealing someones identity or creating a false one.

[blowin1]

There would appear to be a lot more people entitled to know your PPS numbers than you would think,
from http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Personal ... Users.aspx

Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Department of)
Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht (Department of)
Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Department of)
Defence (Department of)
Education and Skills (Department of)
Enterprise, Trade and Innovation (Department of)
Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Department of)
Finance (Department of)
Foreign Affairs (Department of)
Health (Department of)
Justice, Equality and Defence (Department of)
Public Expenditure and Reform (Department of)
Revenue Commissioners (Office of)
Social Protection (Department of)
Taoiseach (Department of the)
Transport, Tourism, and Sport (Department of)
Public Appointments Service
Commission for Public Service Appointments
Local Authorities
Educational Institutions and VECs
Health Service Executive
Hospitals and Related Services
Others

Under others

An Foras Aiseanna Saothair (FÁS)
An tÁrd-Chláraitheoir (The General Registrar)
Central Applications Office
Central Statistics Office (CSO)
Coillte Teoranta
Companies Registration Office (CRO)
Courts Service
Enterprise Ireland
General Medical Services Payments Board
Health and Social Care Professionals Council (known as Coru)
The Higher Education Authority (An tUdaras um Ard-Oideachas)
Irish Prison Service (IPS)
Irish Water
National Cancer Registry Board
Pensions Board
Personal Injuries Assessment Board
Quality and Qualifications Ireland
Road Safety Authority
The Teaching Council
The Legal Aid Board
The Private Residential Tenancies Board
The Private Security Authority
The Probate Office
The Property Services Regulatory Authority

Under Irish Water

Irish Water

The Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2014 contains an amendment to include 'Irish Water' as a specified body in Schedule 5 of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act, 2005 (as amended). This Legislation was enacted on the 17th of July 2014.

We have requested a Return from Irish Water for our website detailing how they use the PPS number and we would hope to have this updated on our website shortly.

[Quello Serio]

I would have thought they were a semi-state, but maybe I'm wrong.

Using the cunning deep research method of reading their website, I see that they say they were:

"Incorporated in July 2013, as a semi-state company under the Water Services Act 2013..."

Also read http://www.water.ie/data-protection-notice/, they are very explicit in stating what the can/will do with your data.

[micropoodle]

Also read http://www.water.ie/data-protection-notice/, they are very explicit in stating what the can/will do with your data.

reading that has me worried now....

In order for Irish Water to provide the Customer with Water Services, it is necessary for Irish Water to collect and use data, including personal public service numbers, relating to the Customer. This data is used mainly to manage and administer the Customer account and for operational reasons, including for example, visits to the Premises, works required at the Premises and construction and maintenance activities. In addition, data relating to the Customer may be used for health and safety, administration, risk assessment, marketing and credit checking purposes. Irish Water may use the data relating to the Customer to carry out credit checks and for fraud prevention with licensed agencies including the Department of Social Protection and fraud prevention agencies. This data may be recorded by these organisations to prevent fraud, help make credit decisions about the Customer and for debt collection purposes. Irish Water may keep the Customer's data for a reasonable period after the Customer ceases to be supplied with Water Services but will not keep it for any longer than is necessary and/or as required by law.

Irish Water may share the Customer's data with agents or third parties who act on behalf of Irish Water in connection with the activities referred to above. Such agents or third parties are only permitted to use the Customer's data as instructed by Irish Water. They are also required to keep the Customer's data safe and secure. The data that we collect from you may be transferred to, and stored at, a destination outside the European Economic Area ("EEA"). In the event that the data is stored outside of the EEA, Irish Water shall procure that all relevant laws are complied with to secure the data. It may also be processed by staff operating outside the EEA who works for us or for one of our suppliers. Such staff maybe engaged in, among other things, the processing of your request for information and the provision of support services. By submitting data to Irish Water, the Customer agrees to this transfer, storing or processing. Irish Water will take all steps reasonably necessary to ensure that your data is treated securely.

[b]Irish Water may disclose the Customer's data to third parties in the event that it sells or buys any business or assets, in which case it may disclose Customer data to the prospective seller or buyer or such business or assets; if Irish Water or substantially all of its assets are acquired by a third party, in which case Customer data held by it about its Customer will be one of the transferred assets.[/b] Irish Water may also disclose Customer data if it is under a duty to disclose or share Customer data in order to comply with any legal obligation, or in order to protect the rights, property, or safety of Irish Water, its customers or others. This includes exchanging information with other companies and organisations for the purposes of fraud protection and credit risk reduction. Irish Water will also disclose Customer data if it believes in good faith that it is required to disclose it in order to comply with any applicable law, a summons, a search warrant, a court or regulatory order, or other valid legal process.

apologies for the long quote, but it's relevant. they say that they can give any details we send them to a buyer of the business. Invariably Irish Water will be privatised at some point and a private company will have that information.

Personally, I don't see a problem with giving my PPS number to people. I beleive there may be an identity theft possibility, but I cant see how. However, the misinformation that is out there is vast.
Not entirely sure why someone (eg: minister for the environment) cant clear all of this up with a simple statement

[kev]

For anyone in the area that's interested, there's a Facebook page setup for Donabate, Portrane says no at: https://www.facebook.com/DonabatePortranesayNo

[topsyturvey]

Hi...I filled in the forms and sent them off without the PPS numbers and they've confirmed back that I'm registered

[Quello Serio]

For anyone in the area that's interested, there's a Facebook page setup for Donabate, Portrane says no at: https://www.facebook.com/DonabatePortranesayNo

I don't like that page. Does opposition to the water charges have to involve name calling and bad manners?

[diggerbarnes]

And why would anyone want to be associated with that twit Paul Murphy?
Oops sorry, name calling

[kev]

I don't like that page. Does opposition to the water charges have to involve name calling and bad manners?

Absolutely not. I completely agree.

There's a pretty large body of people involved though so you can't expect everyone else's sensibilities to be in alignment with your own. The thing is, if you have an issue with the principle or the implementation of this then that is the only real commonality you need.

[kev]

And why would anyone want to be associated with that twit Paul Murphy?
Oops sorry, name calling

Very witty.

You could name any TD and there'll be people, like yourself, who'll jump at the chance to call them names.

@Quello Serio, case in point

[Mr. Stupid]

What I find annoying about the anti-brigade is that they never have an alternative that is properly costed. All they do is complain. Make an alternative that is costed that is a better option please.

[diggerbarnes]

I think Paul Murphy and his ilk disenfranchise people who feel aggrieved about water charges and would like to protest. I don't like him or his methods.

[kev]

What I find annoying about the anti-brigade is that they never have an alternative that is properly costed. All they do is complain. Make an alternative that is costed that is a better option please.

The "anti-brigade", being such a disparate group, have put forward a broad spectrum of alternatives. For example, Paul Murphy has always been clear about his:

"What we're in favour of is progressive tax - based on income, wealth and profits. In that way, shape a progressive model of taxation. Water charges would take an average of close to 2% of income from the bottom 10% and less than 0.2% from the top 10%. That's the definition of regressive."
- http://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comment ... hy_td_ama/

He's stated this, or words to the same effect, countless times in print and on radio. The Last Word on TodayFM a few days ago being the most recent I heard.

There's plenty of material and discussion about alternatives online but even if you'd a passing interest in the topic and you even semi-regularly read or listen to the news, you'd likely have been exposed to this view.

[kev]

I think Paul Murphy and his ilk disenfranchise people who feel aggrieved about water charges and would like to protest.

Sorry, this sentence doesn't make any sense to me. I think we may have very different understandings of the word "disenfranchise".

That aside, yes, he was elected as a representative and in that role has exercised his democratic right to protest peacefully, as have hundreds of thousands of people across the country.

[diggerbarnes]

Peacefully? Hmmm.
I think it's fair to say that many people stay at home when they see the shenanigans of some protesters. I think that qualifies as indirectly taking away their right to protest, making it uncomfortable to do so.

[kev]

Peacefully? Hmmm.
I think it's fair to say that many people stay at home when they see the shenanigans of some protesters. I think that qualifies as indirectly taking away their right to protest, making it uncomfortable to do so.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. You seem to be saying that the shenanigans of Paul Murphy and his ilk cause people who want to protest to stay at home, thereby indirectly disenfranchising them. is that right?

Regarding the peace: by anyone's measure, internationally and at home, the protests have been regarded as extremely peaceful events and well represented by a broad section of society. There were two localised exceptions to this: one where Joan Burton's car was unable to leave and another where an insult was shouted at President Higgins.

When you're talking about nationwide protests, that is a very small number of incidents.

[Quello Serio]

Peacefully? Hmmm.
I think it's fair to say that many people stay at home when they see the shenanigans of some protesters. I think that qualifies as indirectly taking away their right to protest, making it uncomfortable to do so.

I think there is a lot of truth there.

Regarding that Facebook page - despite the 'mutual enemy makes us friends' theory, I would have a problem associating with a group who (for example) appear to endorse the belief that the President is a 'Midget Parasite' - its a political angle and an irrelevant personal insult both crudely and disrespectfully delivered. The owners of the page should weigh up the numbers they attract by the content on the page Vs the numbers they drive away by the content on the page.

[kev]

Regarding that Facebook page - despite the 'mutual enemy makes us friends' theory, I would have a problem associating with a group who (for example) appear to endorse the belief that the President is a 'Midget Parasite' - its a political angle and an irrelevant personal insult both crudely and disrespectfully delivered. The owners of the page should weigh up the numbers they attract by the content on the page Vs the numbers they drive away by the content on the page.

Yes, good point and I agree.

[Mr. Stupid]

What I find annoying about the anti-brigade is that they never have an alternative that is properly costed. All they do is complain. Make an alternative that is costed that is a better option please.

The "anti-brigade", being such a disparate group, have put forward a broad spectrum of alternatives. For example, Paul Murphy has always been clear about his:

"What we're in favour of is progressive tax - based on income, wealth and profits. In that way, shape a progressive model of taxation. Water charges would take an average of close to 2% of income from the bottom 10% and less than 0.2% from the top 10%. That's the definition of regressive."
- http://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comment ... hy_td_ama/

He's stated this, or words to the same effect, countless times in print and on radio. The Last Word on TodayFM a few days ago being the most recent I heard.

There's plenty of material and discussion about alternatives online but even if you'd a passing interest in the topic and you even semi-regularly read or listen to the news, you'd likely have been exposed to this view.

We already have a very progressive tax system. You pay hardly anything if you earn below average industrial wage. You pay a massive amount on the higher rate. It is unfair to keep hammering working people on PAYE. Broadening the tax base is a good idea and it encourages people to respect water how much it costs and not to be wasting it.

[Mr. Stupid]

There's plenty of material and discussion about alternatives online but even if you'd a passing interest in the topic and you even semi-regularly read or listen to the news, you'd likely have been exposed to this view.

These idiots don't have any alternatives. I'd have more respect if they said, we don't believe in water tax, property tax etc. Instead, we will raise that 800 million by increasing PAYE tax by another 7% on people who earn over 45K a year, Or something concrete where the numbers add up

Instead, when pressed for numbers they go on about the bank bailout.

However, they don't propose their alternatives to that either. Again, I'd prefer if they said, we reject the policies of the ECB and instead we would leave the euro, default on our all debts, get our currency which would be devalued and put in currency controls to stop a money run. Instead they make out it's all easy but for some reason FG / Labour can't see it.

It's not easy. All this idiots need a reality check.