Toxic Masculinity - Men's Social?
Trolls hide and never face people, I'm happy to meet you if you want to try and talk that way directly to my face. Or is that too much "toxic masculinity" for you?
If you hurry, i hear Pennys has a "life" sale, better get there asap, to have one!
If you hurry, i hear Pennys has a "life" sale, better get there asap, to have one!
Whether it's toxic or not depends on your behaviour, your next sentence was inflammatory so your toxicity shines bright. Maybe you'd like to meet and kick my ass but that doesn't mean you're a real man or properly masculine. There's always someone better or worse at something than somebody else so there's plenty of guys that could wipe the floor with you ( not me of course being a snowflake ). Penneys has been in Ireland for decades, maybe before the sale you should have noticed the way it was spelt prior to the sale sign distracting you. There is only one way to lead a life as you said yourself and it won't be for sale in Penneys. I must join the masses and man up - you should be a life coach.
I agree. He is not forcing anyone to be friends with him. He just wanted to know if there were people out there who shared the same interests as him. Dont know why people are getting offended by the term toxic masculinity. Threatening someone online when you dont have the guts to use your own name is childish.
OP, you might need to more specific about what you are looking for? Is it to meet for coffee or go the cinema or what? Maybe I missed it but you didnt say what you were interested in, only what you weren't interested in.
Thanks guys, yes things like movies coffee bowling health animals and documentaries. I didn't invent that term anyway 
The infrastructure in Ireland is all set up around sport and bars. I won't name names but even the leisure clubs aren't like what it says on the tin. They promote sameness and socialising isn't their main priority despite the name sports and social or leisure.
The infrastructure in Ireland is all set up around sport and bars. I won't name names but even the leisure clubs aren't like what it says on the tin. They promote sameness and socialising isn't their main priority despite the name sports and social or leisure.Well “Sunny”, if that’s your real name , maybe you can explain to me why being masculine is toxic but being feminine is acceptable?
Probably be hard finding a dictionary to explain it, in amongst all your 12th place participation medals!!!
Probably be hard finding a dictionary to explain it, in amongst all your 12th place participation medals!!!
Toxic Masculinity doesn't exist as anything other than a concept in the pseudo-intellectual world of third wave feminism (which could more accurately now be described as female supremacism).
I'm sorry you've internalised the misandry of those around you OP. Perhaps as you get a bit older, read a little wider and develop some skills of critical thought, you'll escape their clutches and develop some respect for yourself and your gender.
I'm sorry you've internalised the misandry of those around you OP. Perhaps as you get a bit older, read a little wider and develop some skills of critical thought, you'll escape their clutches and develop some respect for yourself and your gender.
Yes Sunny is my real name.
....I am not the one telling someone to meet you face to face and call you a troll to your face. Why dont you post your name and then I am more than happy to discuss this in person with you? I am curious though. Where did the OP say being masculine is toxic??? Why dont you read the posts instead of getting into a temper. I presume the OP meant he had no interest he had no interest in the stereotypical mens activities of drinking pints, gambling, sports, talking crap about women etc etc. Nothing wrong with any of those things well apart from talking crap about women but I can understand why a man might struggle to find like minded people if he is not into any of that.
I dont agree with the phrase toxic masculinity as it generalises a gender. I drink, gamble, watch and play sport but I am not toxic. Having said that, not sure I want to hang out all day with someone drinking sparkling water, telling me I am gambling too much and reading a novel while the match is on so maybe I am toxic. Either way I am not offended by it and I dont care what the OP thinks about me or what I do.
He might have been a bit silly to bring in a phrase like toxic masculinity but at the end of the day, it is guy posting on a community platform looking for company. In this day and age with all the publicity around the importance of talking and friendship and company for men, I applaud him for making the effort. It takes guts. He didnt deserve the hostility and the insults thrown at him. All it did was probably prove his point. This is a community forum and some of the posts have no place on it.
Anyway, merry christmas everyone.
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salokindoc
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Talk about shit posting. Trolls and I’m sure your not teenage boys but probably 40 something year old
Men with kids, jobs and mortgages. Skip was simply looking for some people to hang out with , make a new social outing for him and others in the area that doesn’t include
1. Alcohol. The most widely used drug and highest cause of domestic violence and social issues in the country
2. Watching Sport. The Neanderthal pastime of watching people who earn more in a year than most in anlifetime.
It’s ridiculous. Call home a snowflake, and mock him all you want but most of us see the cretin for who they are.
Best of luck with it Skip. Hope 2020 is a great year.
To the trolls, go back to your shitty pints of carlsberg, voting Fianna Fáil and spouting shite about transgender rights, veganism and the like. Didn’t realise so many taxi drivers lived in Donabate
I’m off to have a nice gala of Malbec and can’t wait to have my nutloaf vegetarian christmas dinner.
Men with kids, jobs and mortgages. Skip was simply looking for some people to hang out with , make a new social outing for him and others in the area that doesn’t include
1. Alcohol. The most widely used drug and highest cause of domestic violence and social issues in the country
2. Watching Sport. The Neanderthal pastime of watching people who earn more in a year than most in anlifetime.
It’s ridiculous. Call home a snowflake, and mock him all you want but most of us see the cretin for who they are.
Best of luck with it Skip. Hope 2020 is a great year.
To the trolls, go back to your shitty pints of carlsberg, voting Fianna Fáil and spouting shite about transgender rights, veganism and the like. Didn’t realise so many taxi drivers lived in Donabate
I’m off to have a nice gala of Malbec and can’t wait to have my nutloaf vegetarian christmas dinner.
I've been watching this discussion develop for a few days now and am amazed that the admin have not stopped it. Two things :
I cannot believe that someone would seek to find friendship on a site like this. surely you must have some friends in real life or some family who can point you in the right direction,
secondly: there is NOTHING "Toxic" about being a man: whether they drink, lay bets or watch football. Behaviour is toxic and men and women are just as capable of being toxic when the mood takes them. I neither drink nor lay bets but would not consider myself in a position to define what it is to be a man. if you want friends then try a better forum_ its mostly about Beresford, babysitters and urban (bad) planning. I agree that the men's shed is for older men but who is to say you couldn't find a good friend there who might just click with you. Older men have wisdom and humour and I bet some of them do not drink to excess. I think its sad that someone is looking for friendship like this.
I cannot believe that someone would seek to find friendship on a site like this. surely you must have some friends in real life or some family who can point you in the right direction,
secondly: there is NOTHING "Toxic" about being a man: whether they drink, lay bets or watch football. Behaviour is toxic and men and women are just as capable of being toxic when the mood takes them. I neither drink nor lay bets but would not consider myself in a position to define what it is to be a man. if you want friends then try a better forum_ its mostly about Beresford, babysitters and urban (bad) planning. I agree that the men's shed is for older men but who is to say you couldn't find a good friend there who might just click with you. Older men have wisdom and humour and I bet some of them do not drink to excess. I think its sad that someone is looking for friendship like this.
Jesus christ, he didnt put up a tinder advert. How bloody judgemental can someone be to say you must have friends in real life. You know nothing about him. He might have loads of friends but none in the local area. He might have just moved in. Calling someone sad for putting up a post asking if anyone wanted to socialise is pathetic. The amount of men that are seemingly offended by the phrase toxic masculinity is sad. Noone is forcing you to socialise or engage with the OP but passing judgement and insulting an individual that you know nothing about is disgusting behaviour from a grown man. If above is an example of what happens when a man puts up a post looking for people to hang out with in our community, then I certainly be keeping my mouth shut if I ever feel lonely in this area. Merry Christmas indeed. Finished with this thread and finished with this forum if bullying of individuals is allowed by admin.
Admins have been keeping an eye on this thread. We have a light touch moderation policy and don't see any issue with the topic. Yes, some of the discussion has come close to the line, but the OP as argued their points well. We will lock it if the OP prefers.
Regards,
Ken.
Ken.
I didn't realise what it was for a long time. I just thought it was people playing games or being themselves or a control thing. It is not applicable to women hence the reason for whomever classifying it as they did. It is a recognised term displaying an exaggerated and stony macho outlook with certain unwavering set criteria and behaviour expected to be reached by others. It dominates their own behaviour in a way that is carefully measured and sought by them to conform with their archaic view of the male stereotype. They discourage any overstepping or blurring of the gender stereotypes and make their opinions more like standards, demands and expectations. It means things like expecting others to man up, talk is for women, men are doers, men should earn more, men don't wear pink ever and boys should play sport etc. and the list goes on. They will react disapprovingly and often in a premeditated manner in order to control and remove undesirable traits or behaviour. It can put pressure on others to reach unrealistic expectations and seek to diminish others.victor wrote: ↑24 Dec 2019, 18:48 Behaviour is toxic and men and women are just as capable of being toxic when the mood takes them. I neither drink nor lay bets but would not consider myself in a position to define what it is to be a man. if you want friends then try a better forum_ its mostly about Beresford, babysitters and urban (bad) planning. I agree that the men's shed is for older men but who is to say you couldn't find a good friend there who might just click with you. Older men have wisdom and humour and I bet some of them do not drink to excess. I think its sad that someone is looking for friendship like this.
Women are not going to say adult women don't cry, or women can't wear blue or woman up.
The posters who don't like the topic on a community page don't see the irony. Socialising is a community topic. The topic that has riled so many has not been Googled in detail by them.
The topic leads onto another separate discussion about male mental health and perspectives. The movie The Joker shows a page saying something interesting near the start. The poster saying ' its sad ' and the others on the attack are like a bad 90's re-run when the phrase in the playground was ' that's so gay '. It stinks of an element at least of the topic being discussed and the negative cave man reaction. If this was Mumsnet I doubt it would be dubbed ' sad '.
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salokindoc
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Totally agree here with skip. Masculinity isn’t toxic but you can have toxic masculinity. You can have toxic relationships, dosent mean all relationships are bad.
The fact that some users have had to openly state their love for bikes, pints and betting as a response to someone looking for a social outlet is ludicrous. Also mocking someone looking for friends is pathetic. A few guys I went to secondary school committed suicide when in their twenties and I wish they would have reached out to someone but probably felt they couldn’t.
I have had guys tell me to grow a pair, stop getting my knickers in a twist, man up and had my flowery shirts commented on in work. They happen to be the guys who also were sexist racist and homophobic. Not saying all are most were. So to me it’s have your pints and soccer and shite talk about women but I’ll assume you will also make comments like ‘we should take care of our own first’ ( immigration), ‘there are only two genders’ ( transphobia) and ‘ I have nothing against gays but I don’t get it’ (homophobia)
This thread has strengthened my resolve to educate myself more on the processes of the world and to be more vocal and resolute with my options.
I’d recommend checking out Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson and Ratioanly Rules (YouTube ). Maybe you might learn something
The fact that some users have had to openly state their love for bikes, pints and betting as a response to someone looking for a social outlet is ludicrous. Also mocking someone looking for friends is pathetic. A few guys I went to secondary school committed suicide when in their twenties and I wish they would have reached out to someone but probably felt they couldn’t.
I have had guys tell me to grow a pair, stop getting my knickers in a twist, man up and had my flowery shirts commented on in work. They happen to be the guys who also were sexist racist and homophobic. Not saying all are most were. So to me it’s have your pints and soccer and shite talk about women but I’ll assume you will also make comments like ‘we should take care of our own first’ ( immigration), ‘there are only two genders’ ( transphobia) and ‘ I have nothing against gays but I don’t get it’ (homophobia)
This thread has strengthened my resolve to educate myself more on the processes of the world and to be more vocal and resolute with my options.
I’d recommend checking out Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson and Ratioanly Rules (YouTube ). Maybe you might learn something
Hey yes Merry Christmas!
I was given out to and was just explaining, not mansplaining which is another thing! I do disagree though as even at Xmas people can be nasty and bigoted whether it's Xmas or not. It's not cool. It can have a crippling impact on guys like salokindoc said especially around party time or if guys open up to be shot down or ridiculed.
It's okay for people to be educated regarding racism, bigotry, sexism etc. I'm not talking about pc terms. I'm talking about blatant stupidity, ignorance or negative mindsets against people just being themselves. Men have emotions, even the stoic men and some eventually have a meltdown or difficulty when it reaches boiling point. It can also really cast a shadow long term causing worry and stress ruining other or all parts of their lives. Why do you think people are known to find Xmas a real struggle ?
People often find life hard but if someone is condemned or looked down on, or if they get repetitive little remarks or immediately cut down to size over certain innocent aspects of themselves or their behaviour ... ? The point is men may find some other guys chipping away at them making things worse before they even attempt to speak out, and then to a less than eager ear that doesn't get it. They may be given some regimented instructions or choices - rather than support they might end up with sort yourself out with an obvious WTF by the macho dude to end.
I was given out to and was just explaining, not mansplaining which is another thing! I do disagree though as even at Xmas people can be nasty and bigoted whether it's Xmas or not. It's not cool. It can have a crippling impact on guys like salokindoc said especially around party time or if guys open up to be shot down or ridiculed.
It's okay for people to be educated regarding racism, bigotry, sexism etc. I'm not talking about pc terms. I'm talking about blatant stupidity, ignorance or negative mindsets against people just being themselves. Men have emotions, even the stoic men and some eventually have a meltdown or difficulty when it reaches boiling point. It can also really cast a shadow long term causing worry and stress ruining other or all parts of their lives. Why do you think people are known to find Xmas a real struggle ?
People often find life hard but if someone is condemned or looked down on, or if they get repetitive little remarks or immediately cut down to size over certain innocent aspects of themselves or their behaviour ... ? The point is men may find some other guys chipping away at them making things worse before they even attempt to speak out, and then to a less than eager ear that doesn't get it. They may be given some regimented instructions or choices - rather than support they might end up with sort yourself out with an obvious WTF by the macho dude to end.
I understand your points
We can't control anyone else only ourselves
All we have are our opinions and it is wonderous how different perspectives can be on the same topics
In life we will all have our difficulties and no one gets out unscathed
All this new terminology washes over my head as I just like to keep things simple so the bottom line for me is to respect other people's views, act in a mannerly fashion and try and help people when possible ... everything else including labels is just superfluous
I'm no Mary poppins.
We can't control anyone else only ourselves
All we have are our opinions and it is wonderous how different perspectives can be on the same topics
In life we will all have our difficulties and no one gets out unscathed
All this new terminology washes over my head as I just like to keep things simple so the bottom line for me is to respect other people's views, act in a mannerly fashion and try and help people when possible ... everything else including labels is just superfluous
I'm no Mary poppins.
I'm not talking political correctness, and watching what and how anything is said.
It's a real and influential shadow hanging over many men from their peers etc. I understand you may not want to get into it.
I think you respectfully gave your take on how the contributors debated unlike others.
I will say that it is harmful and people shouldn't look the other way, but that's after encountering it. The more dominate can really do some damage because of their beliefs and if you think about it ... someone actually seeking advice or support can be unsure of themselves / situation and then to be put down or actually instructed to live up to other's unrealistic expectations piled on top of whatever worry that they sought someone's assistance or advice on.
I may explain it intricately but in plain English it's just a case of play nice and listen to people by asking, instead of observing and just piling military style signed n' sealed disapprovals and expectations on top of men.
It's a real and influential shadow hanging over many men from their peers etc. I understand you may not want to get into it.
I think you respectfully gave your take on how the contributors debated unlike others.
I will say that it is harmful and people shouldn't look the other way, but that's after encountering it. The more dominate can really do some damage because of their beliefs and if you think about it ... someone actually seeking advice or support can be unsure of themselves / situation and then to be put down or actually instructed to live up to other's unrealistic expectations piled on top of whatever worry that they sought someone's assistance or advice on.
I may explain it intricately but in plain English it's just a case of play nice and listen to people by asking, instead of observing and just piling military style signed n' sealed disapprovals and expectations on top of men.
It's a bit like a modern day version of bullying then. This is not something that pertains only to the male gender.
I hark back again to manners - within which, consideration for others is a major aspect.
This country used to be fantastic for helping and considering others and engenderi people to have their say, listening or allowing git as it is voiced.
Not sure if this was destroyed in the first celtic tiger, but the 'me fein ' attitude has risen significantly during that time, rendering large swathes of people - mostly those around the 20 something vintage - void of manners or care of others, with only their own interests in mind. These are still the same- if not worse, 20 or 25 years later.
Commonly you have to run with the pack to fit in and maintain the same interests of the masses in order to be socially included.
However there are multitudes that have the fortitude to do their own thing. This includes dipping in and out of some pack/herd activities or participating in them. Doing their own thing and relishing a variety of past times or hobbies that are alien to most.
These people listen and can look to help out those they see struggling, though such people tend to have others gravitate towards them as it is obvious they will converse as they tend to break the ice and instigate friendly conversation.
I'd say toxic masculinity is a bit of a misnomer. I'd say that common adult behaviour as you ( and I) describe is prevalent in both genders. It boils down to manners. Decent human behaviour. Whether socially , in work or even driving. You see the bad examples. The good examples are there too, just not as obvious. They exist though.
I hark back again to manners - within which, consideration for others is a major aspect.
This country used to be fantastic for helping and considering others and engenderi people to have their say, listening or allowing git as it is voiced.
Not sure if this was destroyed in the first celtic tiger, but the 'me fein ' attitude has risen significantly during that time, rendering large swathes of people - mostly those around the 20 something vintage - void of manners or care of others, with only their own interests in mind. These are still the same- if not worse, 20 or 25 years later.
Commonly you have to run with the pack to fit in and maintain the same interests of the masses in order to be socially included.
However there are multitudes that have the fortitude to do their own thing. This includes dipping in and out of some pack/herd activities or participating in them. Doing their own thing and relishing a variety of past times or hobbies that are alien to most.
These people listen and can look to help out those they see struggling, though such people tend to have others gravitate towards them as it is obvious they will converse as they tend to break the ice and instigate friendly conversation.
I'd say toxic masculinity is a bit of a misnomer. I'd say that common adult behaviour as you ( and I) describe is prevalent in both genders. It boils down to manners. Decent human behaviour. Whether socially , in work or even driving. You see the bad examples. The good examples are there too, just not as obvious. They exist though.
It's a bit different to plain old fashioned bullying or it can be. The person can be charming, polite, friendly and come across as helpful and respectful. It can be obvious from the start or only after they have got to know you and built up a rapport. It takes many forms from control and manipulation to chipping away at someone else's ideology gradually or it can be just straight forward disapproval in certain circumstances from the start.
If there is a rapport or relationship between someone genuine and someone with ' toxic masculinity ' or even if they just fake it until it suits them ... until they find another Alpha Male, the genuine guy can really value the other's opinion and the toxic Alpha Male plays on this. The bond can debilitate the guy from being able to brush it off.
I get the point you make about being able to be different if you have the ' fortitude '. There are people that struggle big time on their own whether they try to join the masses or diverge. You can join the masses all you want but some people don't fall into place. People don't always fit - how do you think some elderly people end up with no family or friends for the final 20 -30 years ? There are people that nobody would realise had passed away unless they miss an appointment.
I reiterate that it is a male only issue. It's not as simple as kindness or nastiness. It's an ideology and a very harmful one. It can be every bit as harmful as a man and woman in a relationship with the man putting the woman on edge and eroding her. Look at it this way, if a man or a woman in a relationship can diminish the other person's abilities, confidence and happiness then it can also happen in a friendship. Like I said it only applicable to males as it is a hierarchy that the Macho Man or Alpha Male imposes. The very point is ' toxic masculinity ' often involves the stronger willed male to have such confidence, or the ability at the very least to fake it perfectly; that it enables them to impose their will or ideology. The other person may not be capable of meeting such expectations and may feel dreadful and very compromised. The toxic masculinity provides uncompromising self assured certainty to the Alpha Male's mind - a clear judgement that the other guy is a disappointment and the honest guy absorbs the disapproval ending up majorly doubting themselves feeling like crap.
The Macho Man can be sincere and genuine in their vision and aspirations for the other person to step up to the plate. They may purposely quietly show a lack of interest / encouragement or slightly disapprove or make brief pointed remarks / jibes as a means to assert pressure to conform. They will react negatively if they incentivise the other party to behave but it doesn't work or they struggle with it. The reaction can be callous, unforgiving and direct absolute disgust and disdain. Games and the cold shoulder may feature more than words or arguments. They may keep a person on the hook until they suddenly chuck them under the next bus. Men have rules imposed on them by such figures who try to dehumanise and desensitise them to be more stoic and resilient. This is not the same for women. Women can support each other or open up without the foregoing presumption of questioning their femininity.
If a young adult guy fell off his bike he would grimace and clench rather than cry no matter the extent of the damage. It is more likely that a young woman would not nearly burst a vessel trying to hold the tears back knowing if the pain was excruciating the moment would happen, and then pass. The man would be mortified to burst out crying especially if it went on for several minutes and if any Macho Males observed such a display both sides would react awkwardly. Men are still held to these attitudes. There is an expectation on men to play or watch sports not placed on women. It can be hard for some men to grasp if another guy has zero interest in ' the game '. They literally are unable to take it on board thinking you're just less interested rather than not at all. Imagine a woman being confused if another woman never bakes in her lovely kitchen.
Toxic masculinity can be subtle, gradual, or permeate any encounters from the first interaction but it can be very invasive, persuasive and pervasive. It is often not as obvious as the kind of bullying where you can see it. It is easier to miss and even for the person to dismiss it as themselves being confused / oversensitive or submitting to blame themselves more. You would struggle to see a motive unlike normal bullying so it becomes a vicious circle of pondering everything and outright confusion. You might also want to get on with the individual and value their input - drastically different from the normal schoolyard bully that you will resent or wish to avoid or maybe confront. It is much worse as it is completely mental and ongoing.
If there is a rapport or relationship between someone genuine and someone with ' toxic masculinity ' or even if they just fake it until it suits them ... until they find another Alpha Male, the genuine guy can really value the other's opinion and the toxic Alpha Male plays on this. The bond can debilitate the guy from being able to brush it off.
I get the point you make about being able to be different if you have the ' fortitude '. There are people that struggle big time on their own whether they try to join the masses or diverge. You can join the masses all you want but some people don't fall into place. People don't always fit - how do you think some elderly people end up with no family or friends for the final 20 -30 years ? There are people that nobody would realise had passed away unless they miss an appointment.
I reiterate that it is a male only issue. It's not as simple as kindness or nastiness. It's an ideology and a very harmful one. It can be every bit as harmful as a man and woman in a relationship with the man putting the woman on edge and eroding her. Look at it this way, if a man or a woman in a relationship can diminish the other person's abilities, confidence and happiness then it can also happen in a friendship. Like I said it only applicable to males as it is a hierarchy that the Macho Man or Alpha Male imposes. The very point is ' toxic masculinity ' often involves the stronger willed male to have such confidence, or the ability at the very least to fake it perfectly; that it enables them to impose their will or ideology. The other person may not be capable of meeting such expectations and may feel dreadful and very compromised. The toxic masculinity provides uncompromising self assured certainty to the Alpha Male's mind - a clear judgement that the other guy is a disappointment and the honest guy absorbs the disapproval ending up majorly doubting themselves feeling like crap.
The Macho Man can be sincere and genuine in their vision and aspirations for the other person to step up to the plate. They may purposely quietly show a lack of interest / encouragement or slightly disapprove or make brief pointed remarks / jibes as a means to assert pressure to conform. They will react negatively if they incentivise the other party to behave but it doesn't work or they struggle with it. The reaction can be callous, unforgiving and direct absolute disgust and disdain. Games and the cold shoulder may feature more than words or arguments. They may keep a person on the hook until they suddenly chuck them under the next bus. Men have rules imposed on them by such figures who try to dehumanise and desensitise them to be more stoic and resilient. This is not the same for women. Women can support each other or open up without the foregoing presumption of questioning their femininity.
If a young adult guy fell off his bike he would grimace and clench rather than cry no matter the extent of the damage. It is more likely that a young woman would not nearly burst a vessel trying to hold the tears back knowing if the pain was excruciating the moment would happen, and then pass. The man would be mortified to burst out crying especially if it went on for several minutes and if any Macho Males observed such a display both sides would react awkwardly. Men are still held to these attitudes. There is an expectation on men to play or watch sports not placed on women. It can be hard for some men to grasp if another guy has zero interest in ' the game '. They literally are unable to take it on board thinking you're just less interested rather than not at all. Imagine a woman being confused if another woman never bakes in her lovely kitchen.
Toxic masculinity can be subtle, gradual, or permeate any encounters from the first interaction but it can be very invasive, persuasive and pervasive. It is often not as obvious as the kind of bullying where you can see it. It is easier to miss and even for the person to dismiss it as themselves being confused / oversensitive or submitting to blame themselves more. You would struggle to see a motive unlike normal bullying so it becomes a vicious circle of pondering everything and outright confusion. You might also want to get on with the individual and value their input - drastically different from the normal schoolyard bully that you will resent or wish to avoid or maybe confront. It is much worse as it is completely mental and ongoing.
Sorry skip. I just don't 'get that' at all.
As in I really cannot see how such a scenario could exist in real life or at least other than very isolated or sparse incidents.... I could see this happening in schoolyards though.
Your examples such as why old people are lonely/on their own, plus women frowned upon for never baking in their new kitchen or finally men being looked upon strangely for not liking football/rugby/sports ...are all complete red herrings and/or incorrect in my opinion at least.
In the toxic masculinity you speak of, most guys would feck off and not be arsed with such painful behaviour from others. Only school kids would put up with such bullying behaviour.
Those people that actually don't, and I suspect it is a tiny minority.... well I'd say they have mental issues that are more about them than the behaviour of others. Those with full control of their faculties would simply walk away and not entertain such people again. Only married couples would take such Abuse...beacause they feel they have to for the sake of the kids.
I think mental health was mentioned on this thread earlier.
It is unfortunately a high occurrence in this country. Reasons for which are a multitude but in won't go into that.
The trick here may be to identify potential people requiring treatment, help or counselling at school age. It can be quite obvious and apparent at that stage.
The issue is the lack of funding for this. While financial backing has increased in recent years, there is t near enough to help people in need of this.
A large percentage of young lads/men need such help from age of 14 to early 20's and are never spotted by the inadequate system. Such mental health support would no doubt assist greatly the people you say are victims of toxic masculinity...
Well from what you have written, this is the conclusion I have reached.
It's just my opinion and perspective and not backed up by any research etc.
As in I really cannot see how such a scenario could exist in real life or at least other than very isolated or sparse incidents.... I could see this happening in schoolyards though.
Your examples such as why old people are lonely/on their own, plus women frowned upon for never baking in their new kitchen or finally men being looked upon strangely for not liking football/rugby/sports ...are all complete red herrings and/or incorrect in my opinion at least.
In the toxic masculinity you speak of, most guys would feck off and not be arsed with such painful behaviour from others. Only school kids would put up with such bullying behaviour.
Those people that actually don't, and I suspect it is a tiny minority.... well I'd say they have mental issues that are more about them than the behaviour of others. Those with full control of their faculties would simply walk away and not entertain such people again. Only married couples would take such Abuse...beacause they feel they have to for the sake of the kids.
I think mental health was mentioned on this thread earlier.
It is unfortunately a high occurrence in this country. Reasons for which are a multitude but in won't go into that.
The trick here may be to identify potential people requiring treatment, help or counselling at school age. It can be quite obvious and apparent at that stage.
The issue is the lack of funding for this. While financial backing has increased in recent years, there is t near enough to help people in need of this.
A large percentage of young lads/men need such help from age of 14 to early 20's and are never spotted by the inadequate system. Such mental health support would no doubt assist greatly the people you say are victims of toxic masculinity...
Well from what you have written, this is the conclusion I have reached.
It's just my opinion and perspective and not backed up by any research etc.
Hey Batman
It is better to get to it sooner but mental health or issues can return or life can bring new unexpected hurdles. Mental Health will be there for everyone all through their lives with some experiencing effects or illnesses if you like more often or severely. Mental Health won't always be completely fixed just like somebody that never manages to be gym body perfect for 75 years. It would take time, dedication, ability and constant energy plus we are only human.
There are successful calm and happy people that have had little to no mental health turbulence. The thing is that people are not machines so it can take 10 things, 100 things or 1 particular thing or bad timing etc to unroot somebody. Some people get so busy that they crumble and crack up, with others it's emotionally driven or bad luck. There are people that are okay until they lose a loved one, or get to a certain age and lose their career or get smeared like Whistleblowers. Someone all together together can unravel bit by bit, or just all together all of a sudden. It may just take somebody cheating in a marriage or becoming very ill causing long term worry, or a sudden incident or open ended circumstances to unsettle someone. They may find it difficult or impossible to get over like PTSD or even Post Natal.
People may have issues beforehand but this won't always be the case by the time they are exposed to toxic masculinity. There are statistics generally for places like US, UK and here that 25% of all romantic relationships become controlling or violent whether it be verbal or physical or both. They don't always have kids and they may even be same sex couples. There was a successful Business Woman on ITV's This Morning that explained that everyone thinks they would not put up with anyone abusing them in a relationship. She explained that it is subtle and unremarkable and builds. I imagine you think that this is different. However, if any gender in a supposedly loving, romantic or passionate close relationship can become abusive then there is no reason to put that aside into a neat little box. It is still reflective of how people can behave and treat others.
They may want the other person to improve, or get agitated or seriously irritated by the person they know so well. People only treat others based on how they perceive them - unless the abusive one has issues prior. The abusive person may have truly revered their relationship and the other person originally but eventually things can change. It is not obvious perhaps for a really extended period of time. The other person will not see a motive like I said or the evidence may be indistinct until much later.
People argue, people seem to care, people pass remarks - all seems innocent. You can't pinpoint it. It goes on until the other person accepts blame that they don't deserve and then it escalates. They are just not getting on, and / or that it is because they caused it they assume. They think maybe there was confusion over events because of them or that they were silly or wrong. The toxic person seems so sure that there is no question of where the blame should be placed. It ends up with one person seriously unsure of everything. The other person gives the impression that indeed you are unreasonable and totally in the wrong. There have been people interviewed on television and the pattern is always the same. You take a person with or without issues and then add a relationship that slowly chips away at their self. You can take a bubbly vivacious woman, or an honest happy go lucky kind soul and add a toxic relationship that started well and possibly didn't spoil for many a day / year. It may have spoiled as other people arrived or things changed but eventually people form a new opinion. Somebody married for 10 years may fall in love with someone they've know 3 years and compare their partner; even if nothing happens. They want to be loyal and they may hope to reinvigorate the marriage, but they end up chipping away trying to improve someone. The person may become less of a draw for them and so they don't hold them in the same regard anymore. They continue to chip away though or erode the other through distance and ill conceived remarks. People can charm strangers but show less regard to people that have gone down in their estimations. There can be people that are nice as pie and show compassion towards others but they won't be nice necessarily to somebody they have heard bad things about, or didn't click with. What about the person in work or school that everybody speaks so highly of and you just know they are a complete jerk ?
You have forgotten one major point ... the toxic masculinity is all about being strong and stoic, being dismayed at guys that are not, and exerting pressure on them to conform to their ideology. Do you not see that people with issues are ironically both less acceptable to the Alpha Male, and also more likely to fall into the trap getting stuck in confusion ?
It is better to get to it sooner but mental health or issues can return or life can bring new unexpected hurdles. Mental Health will be there for everyone all through their lives with some experiencing effects or illnesses if you like more often or severely. Mental Health won't always be completely fixed just like somebody that never manages to be gym body perfect for 75 years. It would take time, dedication, ability and constant energy plus we are only human.
There are successful calm and happy people that have had little to no mental health turbulence. The thing is that people are not machines so it can take 10 things, 100 things or 1 particular thing or bad timing etc to unroot somebody. Some people get so busy that they crumble and crack up, with others it's emotionally driven or bad luck. There are people that are okay until they lose a loved one, or get to a certain age and lose their career or get smeared like Whistleblowers. Someone all together together can unravel bit by bit, or just all together all of a sudden. It may just take somebody cheating in a marriage or becoming very ill causing long term worry, or a sudden incident or open ended circumstances to unsettle someone. They may find it difficult or impossible to get over like PTSD or even Post Natal.
People may have issues beforehand but this won't always be the case by the time they are exposed to toxic masculinity. There are statistics generally for places like US, UK and here that 25% of all romantic relationships become controlling or violent whether it be verbal or physical or both. They don't always have kids and they may even be same sex couples. There was a successful Business Woman on ITV's This Morning that explained that everyone thinks they would not put up with anyone abusing them in a relationship. She explained that it is subtle and unremarkable and builds. I imagine you think that this is different. However, if any gender in a supposedly loving, romantic or passionate close relationship can become abusive then there is no reason to put that aside into a neat little box. It is still reflective of how people can behave and treat others.
They may want the other person to improve, or get agitated or seriously irritated by the person they know so well. People only treat others based on how they perceive them - unless the abusive one has issues prior. The abusive person may have truly revered their relationship and the other person originally but eventually things can change. It is not obvious perhaps for a really extended period of time. The other person will not see a motive like I said or the evidence may be indistinct until much later.
People argue, people seem to care, people pass remarks - all seems innocent. You can't pinpoint it. It goes on until the other person accepts blame that they don't deserve and then it escalates. They are just not getting on, and / or that it is because they caused it they assume. They think maybe there was confusion over events because of them or that they were silly or wrong. The toxic person seems so sure that there is no question of where the blame should be placed. It ends up with one person seriously unsure of everything. The other person gives the impression that indeed you are unreasonable and totally in the wrong. There have been people interviewed on television and the pattern is always the same. You take a person with or without issues and then add a relationship that slowly chips away at their self. You can take a bubbly vivacious woman, or an honest happy go lucky kind soul and add a toxic relationship that started well and possibly didn't spoil for many a day / year. It may have spoiled as other people arrived or things changed but eventually people form a new opinion. Somebody married for 10 years may fall in love with someone they've know 3 years and compare their partner; even if nothing happens. They want to be loyal and they may hope to reinvigorate the marriage, but they end up chipping away trying to improve someone. The person may become less of a draw for them and so they don't hold them in the same regard anymore. They continue to chip away though or erode the other through distance and ill conceived remarks. People can charm strangers but show less regard to people that have gone down in their estimations. There can be people that are nice as pie and show compassion towards others but they won't be nice necessarily to somebody they have heard bad things about, or didn't click with. What about the person in work or school that everybody speaks so highly of and you just know they are a complete jerk ?
You have forgotten one major point ... the toxic masculinity is all about being strong and stoic, being dismayed at guys that are not, and exerting pressure on them to conform to their ideology. Do you not see that people with issues are ironically both less acceptable to the Alpha Male, and also more likely to fall into the trap getting stuck in confusion ?
Hi Skip, yes agree with all of that ... but it applies all genders not just masculinity... so maybe a bit sexist even having that label!!
I know you didn't invent it!
Masculinity is equated with being strong and stoic. These are just two traditional traits of many.
These traits are not those of a toxic masculinity.
Alpha males or males in general are in no way dismayed if men don't conform to this ideology as you say of stoicism or strength.
If anything they like the fact they are stronger than others.
The only case for your scenario is possibly within an army. Out with this apart from school yard I really think this doesn't really exist as any adult guy would walk away rather than be subjected to such unmannerly behaviour.
I think this is really over engineering the instance of bad manners and nastiness calling it toxic masculinity/toxic femininity/ toxic gender neutral etc etc
More than ever people are free to do, think and say much as they like in the modern era.
Guys can dress up in female clothes and go to a market/pub/shops/sports event/music gig etc etc and no one would really give a second look
Society is too self absorbed as well as bad mannered to care much about or look at others
The feeling of isolation coupled with mental health issue is more of a risk for people
I know you didn't invent it!
Masculinity is equated with being strong and stoic. These are just two traditional traits of many.
These traits are not those of a toxic masculinity.
Alpha males or males in general are in no way dismayed if men don't conform to this ideology as you say of stoicism or strength.
If anything they like the fact they are stronger than others.
The only case for your scenario is possibly within an army. Out with this apart from school yard I really think this doesn't really exist as any adult guy would walk away rather than be subjected to such unmannerly behaviour.
I think this is really over engineering the instance of bad manners and nastiness calling it toxic masculinity/toxic femininity/ toxic gender neutral etc etc
More than ever people are free to do, think and say much as they like in the modern era.
Guys can dress up in female clothes and go to a market/pub/shops/sports event/music gig etc etc and no one would really give a second look
Society is too self absorbed as well as bad mannered to care much about or look at others
The feeling of isolation coupled with mental health issue is more of a risk for people